Reasonable Suspicion/Reasonable Cause

[Fallguy]

I think what he meant was, if you tell the officer No, don't start arguing with him on the side of the road as to why he is going ahead and searching anyway. Also don't try to physically stop him or if you are arrested don't try physically resist.

Because I don't think some see simply refusing a request is arguing or resisting.

[dariks]

You say you've learned "don't resist and don't argue" yet you will tell an officer no when he asks to search your car?

Richard

Physically resisting is what I mean. Me telling him "No" is not resisting if he is asking for permission.

[Guest rj8806]

Just checking..............

[Guest betobeto]

I think alot of people are taking it the wrong way, when those of us say we would just say no to a search with out cause. I have nothing but respect for most LEOs but the fact still remains that its my right/our right to say no. Weather they would continue with a search would be up to the officer. I wouldn't go crazy or anything, but I would get their name and badge # and folow up with a call to they'er suppervisor. Not all of us are the BAD GUY lurking in our car. And we shouldn't be treated like one just because the police ask to search cars, like they ask to see IDs and we say no.

Edited June 10, 2008 by betobeto

[The Rabbi]

Probable cause is a 20 lane Interstate a thousand miles long. PC for a stop doesn’t take more than a few blocks, and PC for a search is there or it isn’t.

Thanks.

Go over to Officer.com and the forum section and you will see comments from LE's about "And then I decided to create a little probable cause and searched the vehicle."

I figure it's only the stupid ones posting stuff like this. The smart ones know to keep their mouths shut.

[towerclimber37]

Okay so let me get this straight, First we shouldn't pull people over for traffic violations. We shouldn't ask to search cars or homes. We plant evidence, we use excessive force before we plant the drugs. We sneak up on people when we do traffic stops, we steal and lie, did I forget anything? When Voldemort first got started on here, everyone thought he was a whack job that just tried to start problems with people, but now it looks like that has become a theme on here.

Kwik, I apologize for anything that I have ever thought of you that may have been hurtful. I never posted anything and ain't sure if I thought of any, but feel like I should apologize.

I have enjoyed this forum for a long time, but it seems like everytime I come online, it's all about how bad cops are. Those of you who have said all the BULL S&!T should suit up and do the damn job or shut up.

It's our butts on the line when we stop cars and try to keep the bad guys off the street, maybe we should just all quit, then you could deal with the thugs on your porch.

So far i've heard how the first cop through the door on a no knock warrant is getting shot, Rabbi has posted that some cops beat a man who has drug dealing on his record then planted drugs, then covered it up so they would look like they were okay. If you don't trust cops, don't call when your daughter gets raped, or maybe when your gunshop gets burgalized. You people make me sick, you want us there when you are wronged, but the rest of the time, we should go away because we are all evil cops trying to violate your rights. The cop that stops you, doesn't have a clue who you are, so everyone gets treated with a little suspicion.

The people on this forum that know me personally, know what kind of person I am, and they know what kind of cop I am. I can only hope that they don't feel that way about me. I seem to get angry every time I log on, so like another member here, I will leave now before I say something to get thrown off here.

Shadow12 out

Sam,

I have heard only good things about you!

I will say that the events I described happened in a desolate place so I can understand if the cops that stopped me did their creep up, but *I* didn't agree with getting a ticket for going 5 miles over the speed limit and the condescending way I was spoken to. was I going too fast? I was over the limit..by 5 miles...did I deserve a ticket for a seatbelt violation? no. all the other ones were addons too.

that was ONE incident. I have been given good turns also, by police officers...like when I wasn't cited for speeding, since my mother was in the hospital and I was getting off work to go shower and get to the hospital.

there were LOTS of good officers that I've dealt with.

It doesn't mean that I dislike all officers. heck, there are a few that are my pals and I take every chance to shoot with them when I can, or go fishing...or just hang out with!

I don't care to be crept on though, just like you don't like having to worry about the guy you're stopping!

were you a PEACE officer, not a police officer...I would imagine that you would have more latitude with the decisions you're required to deal with. unfortunately, it ain't so.

I agree with Phantoms' post!

[Guest Phantom6]

Tower, from your "creep up" post I couldn't tell whether you were dealing with DPS which is basicly the Texas Highway Patrol or some local agency. If I remember correctly you were dealing sith 2 officers and their approach to your vehicle was executed just as officers are trained to do today in that one approached your car from each side with the one on the passenger's side hanging back a bit at the rear window post to observe what was going on in the vehicle as the primary or the one on the driver's side cautiously approaching your door. This is what the modern police officer is trained to do becuse it saves lives. Every week officers are seriously injured or worse because they do not follow this procedure.

I was caught in a speed trap (village revenue stream) one evening at 10:30 pm in Pembroke, (western) KY. The speed limit dropped from 55 to 35 as that stretch of hwy passed along the outskirts of the town (village). The 35 mph sign was burried in a hedge row with THE town cop sitting just on the other side. Heck the closest light that I saw was either a barn or a farm house way off in the distance. In those days prior to the general use of computers I was given the option to wait for the magistrate in the morning (the jail was probably an outhouse with a hasp and Master lock) or pay the cop $80 and go on my way. After I paid him I asked for a receipt and he just laughed as he strode back to his car. I might have gotten off cheaper if when the officer asked why I thought I could do 60 MPH through his town I hadn't egagerated craning my neck looking around and saying "town? What f*#%ing town?" He didn't like my attitude so since he couldn't beat me he pencil whipped me. Sounds like you were pencil whipped due to your "control yours" remark. Ironicly enough I was headed up to the McCracken County Sherriff's office in Paducah to work with them on a training exercise with their new Mini-14's. That agency was a fine group of guys to work with.

My point is that there are certainly those that will take advantage of their position but they are in the minority. "Yes sir" and "no sir" will in most cases go along way to mitigate the damages that those asshats will inflict. Most are professionals doing a sometines thankless job and wanting to go home to the spouse, kids or girlfriend/boyfriend same as anyone else. They just happen to wear a shield which is more of a target these days. I try to never let a few bad apples ruin a barrel.

[G27]

I try to never let a few bad apples ruin a barrel.

Excellent point to remember.

That being said, I'll generally tell the officer 'no' if asked. I'm just as strong of a believer in the 4th as I am the 2nd...

[Guest db99wj]

I have been pulled over multiple times in my years of driving and I have been searched one time. Other than that one time, I have never been searched, or even asked to be searched, other than the officer looking into my car from outside while he is talking with me.

I was in Jackson TN, I had a Jeep Wrangler, in college, I can't remember if I was 21 or not, I think I was, the girl might not have been 21 yet. We were just to the east of downtown, heading to someones house out in the sticks for a party. I stopped at a convience store for pit stop, a drink, some smokes, don't really remember. Come out of the store, dude from the around the corner comes up to me, asks for money, I gave him a buck or two, got in the Jeep, headed on down the road, a half mile down the road, this car pulls up behind me, then blue lights, damn. I pull over in the median, it was four lane divided highway close to the car lots. I get stopped and look, and it is a maroon Iroc or Z28 with tinted windows. This guy comes out, plain cloths, mullet (this was the early 90's) and badge around his neck on a necklace. He asked a bunch of questions, who I was, why I was here, where I was going etc, He explained why I got pulled over, and that I had just given a possible drug dealer a couple of bucks. This place is a known drug deal location and what did I buy. I said nothing, and he asked if he could search. I handed him the keys and said it was "all yours". I do have a cooler of beer behind my seat. He said "I'm not a beer cop" He searched, around, looked around, searched me. Of course there was nothing to find. We talked awhile longer and he explained more about that location. And I went on my way.

I'm sure if I would have refused we would have been there forever, probably gone to jail for more questioning, Jeep towed in for a better search and who knows what else. I was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

As I mentioned, I have been pulled over several times and other than what I said above, never been searched. Is this really a problem? I'm sure it happens but many of the times I have been pulled over, it has been in Memphis. Maybe I'm naive, but it is hard for me to see this as a problem.

Everytime I have been pulled over, I have been treated with respect by the officer, I have treated them with respect. Doesn't matter if the LEO was white, black, male or female.

[The Rabbi]

As far as I know it is not illegal to give money to someone. It certainly does not represent probable cause.

"Am I being detained? Am I free to go?" Remember these key phrases.

[einnor1040]

As far as I know it is not illegal to give money to someone.

Yet.

[Guest tlondon]

the thing about db99's story is that the officer told him why he wanted to look. Since the officer was was being respectful and straight up with with him wheres the problem. The officer did witness what appeared to be an exchange of money with a possible drug dealer. It would raise a red flag to me also.

[Guest slothful1]

...He asked a bunch of questions, who I was, why I was here, where I was going etc, He explained why I got pulled over, and that I had just given a possible drug dealer a couple of bucks. This place is a known drug deal location and what did I buy. I said nothing, and he asked if he could search.

I might consent to a search if I thought the LEO had good reason to be interested and if he was acting respectfully and in good faith. It might hinge on as little as the wording of the question above -- "Did you buy anything from that guy" would be simply interrogative, whereas "What did you buy from that guy" is accusatory. I might be inclined to cooperate in the former case, but not the latter.

[The Rabbi]

the thing about db99's story is that the officer told him why he wanted to look. Since the officer was was being respectful and straight up with with him wheres the problem. The officer did witness what appeared to be an exchange of money with a possible drug dealer. It would raise a red flag to me also.

It isn't respectful to body search someone. I would never consent to that.

It is also unclear to me what exactly the officer saw. If he saw what appeared to be an exchange of drugs for money he could have simply searched him without asking. If all he saw was the subject giving money to someone then he had no probable cause and thus had no business searching. And if he knows the other guy is a drug dealer, why isn't he searching him instead??

[Guest db99wj]

Good grief. Remember this was back in 92 or 93... So I may or may not have been 21, I was either 20 or 21. I don't remember the exact word exchange, but my point is that some college kid in his early 20's, at the wrong place and at the wrong time, probably under age, with beer. The cop was very nice, explained everything, why he was there, why I got pulled over. Never did I feel intimidated, never did I feel my rights were trampled on, and to be honest, he could taken me to jail, for the beer, if I was indeed under 21, I would have let him taken the seats out, as long as I didn't have to go to jail and call my dad!

So I guess my thoughts are, depends on the stop, the circumstances around the stop. Kinda like the do you tell the LEO you are armed or not argument, If I was in the wrong place at the wrong time, I might concent to search, I have nothing to hide. If me and the family are rolling down the interstate, I get pulled over for speeding or a sobriety check point, don't search me and possibly upset my kids, you need to have a good reason.

I was not worried about what they did to the other guy, not sure if he was a drug dealer or some crackhead, looking for a dollar to buy a rock, I didn't know, didn't care, I was worried about me and the girl, not going to jail and not having to call my dad in Dyersburg to come get me!

[DaveTN]

I might consent to a search if I thought the LEO had good reason to be interested and if he was acting respectfully and in good faith. It might hinge on as little as the wording of the question above -- "Did you buy anything from that guy" would be simply interrogative, whereas "What did you buy from that guy" is accusatory. I might be inclined to cooperate in the former case, but not the latter.

There’s the key. You might consent to a search if you think the Officer isn’t being a dick.

That works both ways… If the Officer has you for a minor infraction (traffic, bag of pot, open liquor) and he is asking for permission to search when he already has probable cause; he may be trying to decide if you are going to be a dick.

Moral to this story? Don’t be a dick.

[The Rabbi]

That's incomprehensible to me.

If the officer sees a bag of pot he is going to search. He has every right to. What is going to be gained by asking?

He can approach it politely or not politely depending on how pliable the suspect is.

I don't see what he has to gain by asking. And if I were a defendent's attorney I would make the exact case that the officer did not have PC because he asked.

If the defendant waived his rights then it's pretty much moot. If not then there's good grounds to suppress.

Moral of the story: Don't waive your rights.

[DaveTN]

That's incomprehensible to me.

If the officer sees a bag of pot he is going to search. He has every right to. What is going to be gained by asking?

He can approach it politely or not politely depending on how pliable the suspect is.

I don't see what he has to gain by asking. And if I were a defendent's attorney I would make the exact case that the officer did not have PC because he asked.

If the defendant waived his rights then it's pretty much moot. If not then there's good grounds to suppress.

Moral of the story: Don't waive your rights.

I know you have trouble comprehending anything that involves a cop; so let me explain.

On a small bag of pot I had discretion. I could let you dump it and continue about your evening, or I could place you in handcuffs, tow your car and take you to jail.

If it’s someone that I think just learned a lesson and really isn’t a bad person, I can (and have) let them go.

If I am presented with “do you have a warrant?†“Am I free to go?†“My Dads an attorney and he told me never to allow a cop to search my car.†I might decide that you need to learn something about both life and the law, and I hook both you and your car up and haul you off.

Choices man…. You have to make them and then you have to take responsibility for them.

BTW… your attorney could do whatever he likes. At that point my job is done and all I do is take the stand and tell the truth. I really don’t care about the outcome.

[The Rabbi]

So you role was to teach them a lesson about life and the law by infringing on their rights?

Nice.

I have heard this numerous times from cops that they wanted to "teach someone a lesson." I hasten to point out that if they wanted to teach lessons they should have finished college and become teachers.

Cops are there to enforce the law. They have discretion? Great. Use it wisely, not as a reward for sucking up to you.

[DaveTN]

So you role was to teach them a lesson about life and the law by infringing on their rights?

Nice.

I have heard this numerous times from cops that they wanted to "teach someone a lesson." I hasten to point out that if they wanted to teach lessons they should have finished college and become teachers.

Cops are there to enforce the law. They have discretion? Great. Use it wisely, not as a reward for sucking up to you.

Rabbi, I know this is going no where but I have to ask…

Where did I say anything about infringing on someone’s rights?

I did not say I wanted to teach someone a lesson, but if they have learned something… so be it.

I didn’t use it as a reward for sucking up…. But if you want to paint it that way… so be it.

You try to teach people to always say no. I have tried to (on several occasions) to point out to them that there is no pat answer and in teaching their kids they should understand that there is a precise moment in time when everything that a parent and a child has worked for (as far as the child’s career) can be gone; simply because the child didn’t have to tools to deal with a traffic stop.

I do not offer people legal advice, but I’m going to say that I am (by far) more qualified than you are to offer possible scenarios on how a traffic stop will end.

[The Rabbi]

Rabbi, I know this is going no where but I have to ask…

Where did I say anything about infringing on someone’s rights?

I did not say I wanted to teach someone a lesson, but if they have learned something… so be it.

I didn’t use it as a reward for sucking up…. But if you want to paint it that way… so be it.

Nah, you're right. You didnt say anything about teaching a lesson. Just this:

If I am presented with “do you have a warrant?†“Am I free to go?†“My Dads an attorney and he told me never to allow a cop to search my car.†I might decide that you need to learn something about both life and the law, and I hook both you and your car up and haul you off.

If this doesn't sound like you're gonna teach that uppity kid a lesson for not submitting to your authority, then I don't know what it sounds like.

As far as being qualified, I am sure you have stopped many more cars than I have. And I am sure you have gotten people to agree to relinquish rights far more times than I can imagine. But there is a reason that cops aren't lawyers.

[G27]

If I am presented with “do you have a warrant?†“Am I free to go?†“My Dads an attorney and he told me never to allow a cop to search my car.†I might decide that you need to learn something about both life and the law, and I hook both you and your car up and haul you off.

Wow, no offense, but since when is it your job to teach the public anything? This comes off like a massive ego/power trip. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but man...

[Guest Abominable_Hillbilly]

I have been pulled over multiple times in my years of driving and I have been searched one time. Other than that one time, I have never been searched, or even asked to be searched, other than the officer looking into my car from outside while he is talking with me.

I was in Jackson TN, I had a Jeep Wrangler, in college, I can't remember if I was 21 or not, I think I was, the girl might not have been 21 yet. We were just to the east of downtown, heading to someones house out in the sticks for a party. I stopped at a convience store for pit stop, a drink, some smokes, don't really remember. Come out of the store, dude from the around the corner comes up to me, asks for money, I gave him a buck or two, got in the Jeep, headed on down the road, a half mile down the road, this car pulls up behind me, then blue lights, damn. I pull over in the median, it was four lane divided highway close to the car lots. I get stopped and look, and it is a maroon Iroc or Z28 with tinted windows. This guy comes out, plain cloths, mullet (this was the early 90's) and badge around his neck on a necklace. He asked a bunch of questions, who I was, why I was here, where I was going etc, He explained why I got pulled over, and that I had just given a possible drug dealer a couple of bucks. This place is a known drug deal location and what did I buy. I said nothing, and he asked if he could search. I handed him the keys and said it was "all yours". I do have a cooler of beer behind my seat. He said "I'm not a beer cop" He searched, around, looked around, searched me. Of course there was nothing to find. We talked awhile longer and he explained more about that location. And I went on my way.

I'm sure if I would have refused we would have been there forever, probably gone to jail for more questioning, Jeep towed in for a better search and who knows what else. I was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

As I mentioned, I have been pulled over several times and other than what I said above, never been searched. Is this really a problem? I'm sure it happens but many of the times I have been pulled over, it has been in Memphis. Maybe I'm naive, but it is hard for me to see this as a problem.

Everytime I have been pulled over, I have been treated with respect by the officer, I have treated them with respect. Doesn't matter if the LEO was white, black, male or female.

You and the others are free to do what you want as far as consent, and I understand about being a kid in that situation. Consider this, though.............if everyone would politely refuse a search, the police would no longer consider it to be such an odd, "dick" thing to do. No one considers it strange or rude for someone to exit a burning building. Why should it be considered so strange or incomprehensible to exercise your Fourth Amendment rights?

the thing about db99's story is that the officer told him why he wanted to look. Since the officer was was being respectful and straight up with with him wheres the problem. The officer did witness what appeared to be an exchange of money with a possible drug dealer. It would raise a red flag to me also.

A red flag isn't PC or RAS. We encourage the police to overstep their bounds when we don't limit their power on the side of the highway.

And remember: you don't really have any recourse if you're searched outside the limits of the law. You could file a lawsuit, but the officer will receive summary judgment in his favor under qualified immunity. There's no deterrent except to have citizens commonly refuse searches.

There’s the key. You might consent to a search if you think the Officer isn’t being a dick.

That works both ways… If the Officer has you for a minor infraction (traffic, bag of pot, open liquor) and he is asking for permission to search when he already has probable cause; he may be trying to decide if you are going to be a dick.

Moral to this story? Don’t be a dick.

So, you think any refusal to search is being a dick? Great.

He may already have PC, but my guess is that he doesn't, and that's why he's asking for consent. Or at least he isn't sure if he has PC or RAS, and consent will seal the deal if he ultimately wishes to admit evidence.

Where did I say anything about infringing on someone’s rights?

You said you'd punitively use your discretion to punish someone for daring to refuse a search. You'd "teach them a lesson" about exercising a Constitutional right. Whenever you, as an agent of the government, act to disparage or discourage the exercising of a Constitutional right, you are infringing upon that right.

[Punisher84]

Wow, no offense, but since when is it your job to teach the public anything? This comes off like a massive ego/power trip. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but man...

I have to somewhat agree.

Dave, I get what your saying and I have used that discretion on things before, albeit in a security role, but there were still times where I let someone go as opposed to arresting them,etc. I have always been a by the book kinda guy and I suppose once I get my shield and run the streets for a few years we'll see how that holds up and where I stand.

[G27]

You said you'd punitively use your discretion to punish someone for daring to refuse a search. You'd "teach them a lesson" about exercising a Constitutional right. Whenever you, as an agent of the government, act to disparage or discourage the exercising of a Constitutional right, you are infringing upon that right.

AMEN!

*stands and claps*

(well, not really, as that would be both silly and pointless, and my family would think me crazier than they already do, but you get the point...)