Reasonable Suspicion/Reasonable Cause

[Guest Rupertus]

I believe you saw a traffic stop and it's obvious you're angry

[towerclimber37]

That's unbelievable...UNbelievable. Sorry to hear you've got such a big chip on your shoulder to make those assumptions.

If he's got a chip on his shoulder, then I guess he's in good company!

I don't really give a rats butt about what other people do..that's THEIR business...but when a police officer/s pull me over, the LAST thing I want is them doing the tactical creep up to my doors, looking to take something from me or destroy my life.

that in my opinion, is NOT having a chip on my shoulder. they're there to be the ultimate opportunist. it's one thing if they find drugs..but they won't find them in my Jeep. large sums of cash? definitely. I try not to travel with less than a thousand dollars for emergencies. does that make me a criminal? nope..but they can seize that money if they wanted to. so yep. that makes THEM the enemy.

so sad you don't like that.

the last set of police officers that tried to creep up on my vehicle got a pissed off german sheppard on the other side of the glass to greet them.

the officer that was on the drivers side said "control your dog!"

I said "control yours"...mine don't like folks sneakin up on her backside and neither do I!

the other officer walked around to the front of the truck and stood there, while officer stupid wrote me a ticket for 5 miles over the speed limit, not wearing a seatbelt (I took it off to get my wallet and insurance card out, stopping on a bridge over a dry river bed (at 6 in the morning outside of a podunk town in west Texas.)

he made sure to add ALL the infractions I did or didn't do. I didn't care. still don't.

The devil will pop up with ice skates before I pay that ticket.

[Guest Abominable_Hillbilly]

I believe you saw a traffic stop and it's obvious you're angry

Well, if that's the way you view what I've described, then I can understand your opinion of me. What I viewed, however, was not a "traffic stop". What I viewed was an alleged traffic violation being used as PC to begin an investigation related to drug interdiction. Unless, of course, Bradley County (or whomever) has the resources to supply two officers in canine units for all their routine traffic enforcement.

If you lie to me, you destroy all trust.

[Fallguy]

As long as you folks keep it in your noggin that not all cops do the despicable things you talk about over the internet.

As a matter of fact I'd say 99% of police officers are innocent of all charges being brought up in this thread.

Just people, like you, trying to do a job and do it well.

I know it's not all cops, but unfortunatley it only takes a few before some have a bad view and even more are catuious.

I have brother and sister-in-law that are officers I have worked as a deputy and before that rode along a lot as reserve deputy. So I think I have at least a little bit of an idea of what's like in the officers shoes.

I rode with my brother one time...he asked a couple of gals about searching their car when they were at an apartment complex and asked to leave. He had no real reason to, they refused and left, no problem. But in the past I have rode with officers that would have went off at a refusal to search.

I also would have to say in my experience 99% is just a little high.

[EMTRN]

Can we have a police forum to go hide in when the bashing starts? I leave my vest in my locker at the station and I am scared I might need to start wearing it while reading TGO!

[Fallguy]

I really don't feel talking about bad experiences that someone has had or not allowing a search when you don't have to is cop bashing.

[Guest Abominable_Hillbilly]

Can we have a police forum to go hide in when the bashing starts? I leave my vest in my locker at the station and I am scared I might need to start wearing it while reading TGO!

Let me say that I think it's a shame for any "good" officer to feel that he or she is being bashed. You have a hard job. Your job is hard for not only what you have to do at work, but also for the position in which threads such as these place you.

Let me also re-iterate that the majority of my beefs come from policy and law, not necessarily the actions of individual peace officers.

That said, I'm the calm one who absolutely will not yield. I remember names, too.

[Guest Rupertus]

Well, if that's the way you view what I've described, then I can understand your opinion of me. What I viewed, however, was not a "traffic stop". What I viewed was an alleged traffic violation being used as PC to begin an investigation related to drug interdiction. Unless, of course, Bradley County (or whomever) has the resources to supply two officers in canine units for all their routine traffic enforcement.

If you lie to me, you destroy all trust.

It just seems like a lot of assumptions on your part. You really don't know why they stopped the guy, what their intentions were, and what they said to him. I really don't know what you meant by saying the drugs could be used to steal your car and the cash stolen outright...cops are all thieves and liars?

[EMTRN]

I don't like the us against them feelings that come up in these threads. I am one of the nicest guys you will meet. I believe in treating people the way I would want my family treated. At my PD, we have a mirror when you walk out to the street that says "Is this who you would want dealing with your family." I'm sure there are people at most of our jobs that are not easy to deal with. I just don't want the 99% of us that are good people to be lumped in with the bad apples.

[Fallguy]

I don't lump all LEOs together.

I try not assume any member of any group is the same as all the rest.

[Guest jackdog]

Richard, your attitude is the downfall of this country.

I never served in the military. Closest I came was registering for the draft and I was in the first year we had to do that.

If you served you either got drafted or your volunteered. If you got drafted it was your tough luck. If you volunteered it was your choice.

Either way it does not give you more rights than the rest of us. It sure as hell does not allow you to tell people what they should and shouldn't be able to do.

Contrary to what was stated here, American citizens enjoy equal rights under the Constitution. All of them. Regardless of service. Even conscientious objectors, even Vietnam era draft dodgers. Even people who think America is the sum of all evil. All of us enjoy these rights equally.

It is my right to refuse the officer's request to search. I will do so. If he had reasonable cause he wouldn't need to ask, and if he needs to ask he doesn't have reasonable cause.

Am I making the officer's job harder? Yes! And I am happy to, because that's my right. If we abolished all rights then the jobs of police and judges would be infinitely easier. Just lock em up.

Fortunately we don't live in a police state. And the reason we don't is because there are citizens here who push back against the inevitable forces of "law enforcement" that want to curtail those rights. And that includes acts of courage like refusing a search request.

+1 Rabbi.

Richard, thank you for your service, but that in no way entitles you more rights than any other citizen in this country. Based on your thoughts would I have more rights than you because of more combat experience or medals or total time served. The answer is hell no, we are both citizens of a great nation that we chose to serve, nothing more. The guy that does not consent to a search because he believes in his or her constitutional rights is every bit as much of a patriot as one who served in combat. From my stand point your additude is not becoming to a veteran of the armed forces of the United States of America. For the record I'm not against LEO's, but I'm against, laws that allow Leo's liberties to my rights. I will never consent to a search of my vehicle or my domain, go get a warrant, then look all you like.bad Leos are probably in the 10 to 15 percent range from where I sit.

[Guest kwikrnu]

I don't lump all LEOs together.

I try not assume any member of any group is the same as all the rest.

So what do you do when an LEO tries to search you or your property? Do you assume he is your friend or assume he is not?

[Guest kwikrnu]

Bad Leos are probably in the 10 to 15 percent range from where I sit.

I have no way to back up the figures, but I would guess at least that. The problem is these Leo's are protected by their brothers.

[Punisher84]

I don't like the us against them feelings that come up in these threads. I am one of the nicest guys you will meet. I believe in treating people the way I would want my family treated. At my PD, we have a mirror when you walk out to the street that says "Is this who you would want dealing with your family." I'm sure there are people at most of our jobs that are not easy to deal with. I just don't want the 99% of us that are good people to be lumped in with the bad apples.

Yea I can vouch for that. We work together at our "other jobs" and he is definitely a teddy bear. Why, I remember just the other day while he was beating this gu...I mean informing an upstanding citizen of his miranda rights. Nah he's a great guy and a good friend.

Seriously though, guys like EMT, myself, and alot of LEOs I deal with everyday have just as much disdain for the bad apples as you guys do. I think where the US V. THEM thing comes in is what I have now dubbed "internet tone".

In the age of information we still haven't caught up to a way to always read the intention of a post. This causes things to come off wrong on alot of occasions. I would be willing to bet if every member in this thread sat down and had a drink together, we might not all go home with the same opinion, but something tells me we would have found a more common ground. The sad state of affairs is simply this, it is the idiotic few that become the poster child for the courageous many. That is true of LEOs, permit holders, military personnel, and any job in general.

[The Rabbi]

+1 Rabbi.

Richard, thank you for your service, but that in no way entitles you more rights than any other citizen in this country. Based on your thoughts would I have more rights than you because of more combat experience or medals or total time served. The answer is hell no, we are both citizens of a great nation that we chose to serve, nothing more. The guy that does not consent to a search because he believes in his or her constitutional rights is every bit as much of a patriot as one who served in combat. From my stand point your additude is not becoming to a veteran of the armed forces of the United States of America. For the record I'm not against LEO's, but I'm against, laws that allow Leo's liberties to my rights. I will never consent to a search of my vehicle or my domain, go get a warrant, then look all you like.bad Leos are probably in the 10 to 15 percent range from where I sit.

Jackdog. He's my hero.

[TripleDigitRide]

I've always tried to have respect ALL LEO's, but after a bogas speeding ticket, I've somewhat lost faith in the entire system. It's easy to make excuses and/or say "accidents happen", but that's usually coming from someone who's never been wronged.

First of all, I'll be the first to admit, I've done my fair share of speeding, and if busted, been as happy as one could expect to take the punishment like a man. Until this situation, I've never attempted fighting a traffic violation.

I was in my work truck (18 wheeler), headed west on I-40. I had about 22,000 lbs. in the trailer, going up hill around the 163 mile marker (West of Dickson). About 1/2-1 mile past the exit, I was pulled over by a THP officer who said he clocked me at 77mph. As soon as the number 77 spewed from his mouth, I knew he was full of BS. Our trucks are governed at 70mph. Knowing how heavy my load was, and the fact I was going up a hill, there was no way in hell I was doing anywhere near 77mph.

Knowing there was no way he clocked ME at 77mph, I politely told him that he must have clocked someone else. Of course, he knew it was me. Being the nice guy I am, I didn't bother with a full blown argument. I figured it would be no problem solving it during the court hearing. I also knew Mr. THP officer didn't have a clue, because he tried giving me a ticket for a log book violation, which wasn;t gonna stick, because I wasn't required to carry a log book.

As soon as I was let go (with a ticket), I went a few miles down the road, made my delivery, and headed back to the Penske (where we lease our trucks) lot. I had them connect my truck to the computer system, so I could get a printout of my actual speeds. For those who don't know (don't worry, the THO officer and Judge had no clue either), all 18 wheelers have an on-board computer system that tracks everything from speeds, RPM's, engine temp., rear end temp., transmission temp, shifting points, and many many other things. The OBC tracks this stuff to the SECOND. Of course, in the 3 months prior to the ticket, my truck had not exceeded 72mph.

With this information in hand, I knew this would be an open and shut case. WRONG! When I got up in front of the judge (Centerville), I made it a point to clear up the whole "log book violation" issue. And of course, the judge told the THO officer that it would be a good idea if he talked to his supervisor about the actual laws regarding log books. I didn;t quite get the same results when it came down to the speeding tickets. I handed the judge the printout from Penske, showing that my truck had never reached anywhere near the 77mph mark. The judge had no idea what he was looking at, so he handed the printout to the THP officer, who didn't even know basic log book laws. Of course, this idiot couldn't make heads or tails of the printout, so he said "Judge, anyone could have made this on a computer". So, in other words, this SOB was calling me a liar. No, not just anyone could have made up such a printout. I then explained to the Judge that this information is the very same information that THP would used in the event of a traffic accident involving a semi, but again, the moron THP officer told the Judge, "That's not true..We use another computer. Bull F'in S**t. There is only one computer on the truck for them to use, and because the Judge didn;t know a damn thing either, I was found guilty.

Without a doubt, not even an ounce of doubt, I was screwed by the system who didn't have a clue. The THP officer and Judge were/are as incompetent as the day is long. Who's the one to pay for such ignorance? ME! And they don't give a damn.

[EMTRN]

Punisher is my hero! Actually, it was "you can go to jail or go home it is your choice.":)

[Guest jackdog]

Golly I always wanted to be one of those. Wait a minute all the heroes i Know died in combat.

[The Rabbi]

Golly I always wanted to be one of those. Wait a minute all the heroes i Know died in combat.

Jackdog, none of my heroes died in combat. They all live on eternally.

[Guest betobeto]

Why does everyone think my generation is ruining the world? I by far don't think we are the best, but I can't say we are the worst. I was an Army man myself and I'm about to be a police officer. I've debated similar topics before and I can see both points. Really what it boils down to is probable cause. If it's good enough, it will withstand. If it's not, well, "Have a nice night Sir."

Nicely said!

[Guest kwikrnu]

Really what it boils down to is probable cause. If it's good enough, it will withstand. If it's not, well, "Have a nice night Sir."

That's the problem, there is no real punishment. Other than a, "sorry 'bout that have a nice night." It reminds me of those troopers that shot a family dog and threw a family on the ground last year because they thought they were felons.

It will only get worse because we are losing freedom in an astonishing rate.

[Guest betobeto]

That's the problem, there is no real punishment. Other than a, "sorry 'bout that have a nice night." It reminds me of those troopers that shot a family dog and threw a family on the ground last year because they thought they were felons.

It will only get worse because we are losing freedom in an astonishing rate.

Wow I actually agree with you on something. May be we can still be friends.

[Guest kwikrnu]

No, we can't.

[Guest Abominable_Hillbilly]

It just seems like a lot of assumptions on your part. You really don't know why they stopped the guy, what their intentions were, and what they said to him. I really don't know what you meant by saying the drugs could be used to steal your car and the cash stolen outright...cops are all thieves and liars?

When I see several police vehicles in a median running radar on the interstate, I feel pretty confident that they are going to be using alleged traffic violations as probable cause for seizure.

When I read State v. Fly (Tenn) and Illinois v. Caballes (SCOTUS), then I know why the canines are right there during the seizure.

When I read civil forfeiture case law, then I know why all these things occur together on I-75.

Some cops are thieves and liars, yes.

Here's some interesting commentary on the Fourth Amendment and traffic stops. It's getting ugly:

http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/698c98dd101a846085256eb400500c01/33240765dfecc2e9852573c40051fec2?OpenDocument

I don't like the us against them feelings that come up in these threads. I am one of the nicest guys you will meet. I believe in treating people the way I would want my family treated. At my PD, we have a mirror when you walk out to the street that says "Is this who you would want dealing with your family." I'm sure there are people at most of our jobs that are not easy to deal with. I just don't want the 99% of us that are good people to be lumped in with the bad apples.

I don't know you, but I have no reason to doubt that you are the consummate professional and an asset to your community. The system you serve, however, is spiraling out of control. "Us against them" is "constitutionalists against collectivists". I feel it's a worthy fight, and one in which I'm willing to participate.

[Fallguy]

So what do you do when an LEO tries to search you or your property? Do you assume he is your friend or assume he is not?

Friendship would have nothing to do with it. I interact with people all the time that are neither friends or enemies. If he had a warrant or PC I'd let him, if not I wouldn't.

In the age of information we still haven't caught up to a way to always read the intention of a post. This causes things to come off wrong on alot of occasions. I would be willing to bet if every member in this thread sat down and had a drink together, we might not all go home with the same opinion, but something tells me we would have found a more common ground. The sad state of affairs is simply this, it is the idiotic few that become the poster child for the courageous many. That is true of LEOs, permit holders, military personnel, and any job in general.

I completely agree...and if we ever meet, first round is on me.

I was in my work truck (18 wheeler), headed west on I-40. I had about 22,000 lbs. in the trailer, going up hill around the 163 mile marker (West of Dickson). About 1/2-1 mile past the exit, I was pulled over by a THP officer who said he clocked me at 77mph. As soon as the number 77 spewed from his mouth, I knew he was full of BS. Our trucks are governed at 70mph. Knowing how heavy my load was, and the fact I was going up a hill, there was no way in hell I was doing anywhere near 77mph..........................................

TDR you were screwed, plain and simple. Sometimes it's hard to dumb things down enough for small town judges to understand. Maybe next time a signature on the paper from the person who printed out for you or something.

Of course another way to look at it, is this was just paying for one of those times you weren't caught. I sort of figure things even out in the end. I don't get mad when a coke machine takes my money because I have go free cokes or for less than the stated price. Yin-Yang