Reasonable Suspicion/Reasonable Cause

[Guest kwikrnu]

IMO, if the officer is asking to search the car, then he has probable cause and no one has the right to refuse him. That's just how I see it.

If he asks he does not have probable cause. When he orders it he thinks he has probable cause.

I used to believe that you could trust cops. Cops can and will lie there is no law against it.

[Fallguy]

IMO, if the officer is asking to search the car, then he has probable cause and no one has the right to refuse him. That's just how I see it.

Maybe in your opinion it is probably cause, but not legally. And everyone has the right to refuse him. The also have the right not to if they choose to let him.

[Guest rj8806]

The way I see it joining the military or being a law enforcement officer is a job. ......

That's where we don't see eye to eye, joining the military, IMO, is our duty, not a job. Anyone who is physically able to serve, should serve. Every male in my family either joined or was drafted and I feel that every male alive who is able to fight to protect our freedom and rights as a United States citizen, should. If it were my choice, I would start the draft up again.

Richard

[Guest mw.]

I was not implying that when I typed it and therefore tried to clarify it in the above post. IMO, if the officer is asking to search the car, then he has probable cause and no one has the right to refuse him. That's just how I see it.

Even your other post sounded alot like that.

Should that apply to your house, computer, ect. ?

[Guest rj8806]

Maybe in your opinion it is probably cause, but not legally. And everyone has the right to refuse him. The also have the right not to if they choose to let him.

Obviously we'll have to agree to dis-agree.

[Guest rj8806]

Even your other post sounded alot like that.

Should that apply to your house, computer, ect. ?

Once again, I have nothing to hide. If they feel like they need to come search my house, computer, car, whatever, I will gladly step aside and let them. When they don't find anything, and they won't, I will go about my business.

Sorry if I think popping out of your mothers womb shouldn't automatically grant you every right and freedom. I am entitled to my opinion as is everyone else.

[GhstFace38]

No, we don't have to. Just like we don't have to show you the radar.

[Guest slothful1]

yes it is your right, but unless you just stamped out a joint or polished off a beer, or something else illegal, why would you? just because you can? That's ignorant.

I would refuse such a request from an LEO for the same reason that I would refuse a request from any other impertinent stranger who wanted to rifle through my belongings. Cops aren't God, you know.

[Guest slothful1]

Anyone who is physically able to serve, should serve.

What about those of us who are not physically able to serve? Are we permanently ineligible to assert our legal rights, or do you magnanimously grant us a exemption?

[Guest Rupertus]

Is it me or is cop bashing a common theme on TGO?

[The Rabbi]

I, in no way, singled out the non combative support personel. I did try to single out anyone who never served in any form or fashion and thinks they have the "right" to refuse a LEO the opportunity to look in their vehicle.

Maybe my post came across wrong and maybe I stepped on toes but correct me if I am wrong.... The poster said what gets him riled up is someone who "gives away" their rights so easily. My point was since he never served in any fashion and is only enjoying the fruits of OUR labor(and by OUR, I mean anyone who served in any fashion in any branch), he should not refuse a LEO the chance to search his car if he (the LEO) feels like he needs to.

I have been pulled over twice since acquiring my HCP and both times, I presented my drivers license and HCP card and then stepped out of the car and allowed him to have a look. I have nothing to hide. Maybe he does illegal activities while in his car and for that, doesn't want to get busted? I don't know, but for someone who never served to go off on a rant about his/her rights, when all they did to get those rights was pop out of their momma, is just wrong.

That's what gets me riled up.

Richard

Richard, your attitude is the downfall of this country.

I never served in the military. Closest I came was registering for the draft and I was in the first year we had to do that.

If you served you either got drafted or your volunteered. If you got drafted it was your tough luck. If you volunteered it was your choice.

Either way it does not give you more rights than the rest of us. It sure as hell does not allow you to tell people what they should and shouldn't be able to do.

Contrary to what was stated here, American citizens enjoy equal rights under the Constitution. All of them. Regardless of service. Even conscientious objectors, even Vietnam era draft dodgers. Even people who think America is the sum of all evil. All of us enjoy these rights equally.

It is my right to refuse the officer's request to search. I will do so. If he had reasonable cause he wouldn't need to ask, and if he needs to ask he doesn't have reasonable cause.

Am I making the officer's job harder? Yes! And I am happy to, because that's my right. If we abolished all rights then the jobs of police and judges would be infinitely easier. Just lock em up.

Fortunately we don't live in a police state. And the reason we don't is because there are citizens here who push back against the inevitable forces of "law enforcement" that want to curtail those rights. And that includes acts of courage like refusing a search request.

[Punisher84]

Is it me or is cop bashing a common theme on TGO?

It is definitely more prevalent here than I've seen on other forums, BUT I will also say this, TGO contributors tend to be on a majority willing to debate rather than argue and try to see both sides of things, but you do have a few people who are very rooted in screaming MY RIGHTS MY RIGHTS!!!!! at the top of their lungs and can't or won't look at it from an officer's standpoint.

I think the "cop bashing" comes more from a distrust of the government as a whole, than individual officers. I also have to say I'm in the middle on this topic. Like Rabbi said, if you really have probable cause you don't need permission.

Edited June 4, 2008 by Punisher84

[Guest Abominable_Hillbilly]

Once again, I have nothing to hide. If they feel like they need to come search my house, computer, car, whatever, I will gladly step aside and let them. When they don't find anything, and they won't, I will go about my business.

Sorry if I think popping out of your mothers womb shouldn't automatically grant you every right and freedom. I am entitled to my opinion as is everyone else.

A couple of points. Even though I'm never in possession of contraband, I DO have something to "hide". My privacy.

By refusing the search, and doing so as a law-abiding citizen, I'm doing my part to help the officer. He'd be wasting his time searching me just for his own curiosity. He's asking for consent because he can't articulate reasonable suspicion, and because there's nothing in plain view that constitutes probable cause. He's just curious. Fishing. Let him go find a real criminal, or a sheep who wishes to lay their life bare on the side of the highway for a complete and total stranger. They both deserve to be violated by the state.

Many people have "fought for our rights" and never donned a uniform. Some of them have been beaten, killed, or had their lives ruined for having waged their war. They've made their stand in court rooms, on the sidewalk, and on the side of the highway.

A right not exercised is, indeed, soon ceded to the government. With a few recent court decisions, our rights during a traffic stop are slowly being restricted even further. It's getting spooky.

[Guest Rupertus]

These topics seem to digress pretty quick. Does anyone even remember what the actual question was or is it just an open rant on civil liberties?

[einnor1040]

With a few recent court decisions, our rights during a traffic stop are slowly being restricted even further. It's getting spooky.

And there are people who have no problem with this.

That is really spooky.

[Guest Abominable_Hillbilly]

It is definitely more prevalent here than I've seen on other forums, BUT I will also say this, TGO contributors tend to be on a majority willing to debate rather than argue and try to see both sides of things, but you do have a few people who are very rooted in screaming MY RIGHTS MY RIGHTS!!!!! at the top of their lungs and can't or won't look at it from an officer's standpoint.

I think the "cop bashing" comes more from a distrust of the government as a whole, than individual officers. I also have to say I'm in the middle on this topic. Like Rabbi said, if you really have probable cause you don't need permission.

You're getting close to the way I feel. In my experience, most cops aren't bad folks. The system within which they (and we) operate, though, pretty much sucks. The net effect is that too often cops have felt like I had a problem with them when they dealt with me.

Let me give you an example. I was driving down 75 to Cleveland, TN, the other day. When we got down around Athens, there were these Chevy SUV's parked in a wooded area in the median. These were police K-9 units. Bradley county, maybe. This was a "speed trap". About a mile down the road, one of these units had a guy pulled over. There were two officers, one on each side of a newer Ford half ton. Tennessee tags. Now, if I'm in the driver's shoes, I'm going to get frustrated really quickly. I've been seized by a canine unit on I-75 by two "police men" dressed like soldiers. One of them is going to stand flat-footed by the driver's door of my car and claim that they stopped me for an alleged traffic violation. It's going to piss me off to be lied to by a couple of drug interdiction/civil forfeiture cops. They're going to be lying to me. They don't care that I was going 65 in a 60. That's simply their probable cause to seize me and get all in my business. They're looking for drugs and large sums of cash. The drugs could be used to steal my car, and the cash can be stolen outright. How does such a scenario make someone feel about our government and its agents? We're very quickly moving to the point that the average traffic stop is going to turn into a harrowing interrogation. Learn your rights now.

[Guest Abominable_Hillbilly]

These topics seem to digress pretty quick. Does anyone even remember what the actual question was or is it just an open rant on civil liberties?

It was a question about a traffic stop and civil liberties.

[Punisher84]

I'll definitely concede something in your post Abominable, Narcotics guys are a different breed. Sadly, they have to be, but yea not gonna be a fun stop. One of my friends is on SWAT and I have heard, by more than one fellow officer, that if he pulled over Jesus he'd ask him to step out of the vehicle.

Now don't get me wrong he's a good officer, but he is definitely the hard line type that is not afraid to ruffle a few feathers. That's great when dealing with the right people, not always great pulling Granny over...

[mdlave]

I can't express how much I appreciate our service men and women and their role in protecting the rights guaranteed to us by our forefathers.

So, it seems absolutely bizarre to me that anyone who has contributed so much through military service would support a cop s***ing all over the Bill of Rights.

[Guest dotsun]

Once again, I have nothing to hide. If they feel like they need to come search my house, computer, car, whatever, I will gladly step aside and let them. When they don't find anything, and they won't, I will go about my business.

Sorry if I think popping out of your mothers womb shouldn't automatically grant you every right and freedom. I am entitled to my opinion as is everyone else.

I get the feeling you believe that anyone who hasn't served in the military is a second class citizen not worthy of protection by the constitution, is that a fair statement of your stance?

[GhstFace38]

As long as you folks keep it in your noggin that not all cops do the despicable things you talk about over the internet.

As a matter of fact I'd say 99% of police officers are innocent of all charges being brought up in this thread.

Just people, like you, trying to do a job and do it well.

[The Rabbi]

I dont know about 99%. Cops are there to do a job. Their job is to get criminals off the streets. If they stop me, they suspect me of being one of those criminals, and will likely treat me as such until proven otherwise.

So they are hardly my friends in that situation.

But the fact there are some who will exceed their limits, or try to, is good enough reason to be wary of all cops.

[Guest Rupertus]

You're getting close to the way I feel. In my experience, most cops aren't bad folks. The system within which they (and we) operate, though, pretty much sucks. The net effect is that too often cops have felt like I had a problem with them when they dealt with me.

Let me give you an example. I was driving down 75 to Cleveland, TN, the other day. When we got down around Athens, there were these Chevy SUV's parked in a wooded area in the median. These were police K-9 units. Bradley county, maybe. This was a "speed trap". About a mile down the road, one of these units had a guy pulled over. There were two officers, one on each side of a newer Ford half ton. Tennessee tags. Now, if I'm in the driver's shoes, I'm going to get frustrated really quickly. I've been seized by a canine unit on I-75 by two "police men" dressed like soldiers. One of them is going to stand flat-footed by the driver's door of my car and claim that they stopped me for an alleged traffic violation. It's going to piss me off to be lied to by a couple of drug interdiction/civil forfeiture cops. They're going to be lying to me. They don't care that I was going 65 in a 60. That's simply their probable cause to seize me and get all in my business. They're looking for drugs and large sums of cash. The drugs could be used to steal my car, and the cash can be stolen outright. How does such a scenario make someone feel about our government and its agents? We're very quickly moving to the point that the average traffic stop is going to turn into a harrowing interrogation. Learn your rights now.

That's unbelievable...UNbelievable. Sorry to hear you've got such a big chip on your shoulder to make those assumptions.

[Guest Rupertus]

Rabbi...Guilty conscience? They might have tapped your phone too!

[Guest Abominable_Hillbilly]

That's unbelievable...UNbelievable. Sorry to hear you've got such a big chip on your shoulder to make those assumptions.

You don't believe my story, or you just can't believe that the particulars of the story make me angry?