Reasonable Suspicion/Reasonable Cause

[G27]

Darkstar, why do you hate America?

It's the freedom, man, the freedom...

[Guest Abominable_Hillbilly]

The fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution does not say that cops need a warrant to search your car. It also contains the word “Unreasonable” which many people like to forget. Our founding Fathers were trying to protect innocent citizens from unreasonable searches; not protect criminals hauling dope.

You've said something to this effect before. It really gets under my skin. Let me explain something very important about the document you swore to uphold and defend: it requires that all people are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. That guy you caught with a bag of dope? He's INNOCENT until he's convicted through due process of law. The Fourth Amendment protects innocent people from unreasonable search and seizure. All innocent people, regardless of suspicion or evidence, are protected by this amendment. Otherwise, the government would have no check against its authority to interfere with people's lives. There would be no safeguard against the government just randomly busting down doors and searching. Lord knows you're not going to get a check from them when they violate your Fourth Amendment guarantees. The exclusionary rule is the only check of the government in this regard--even by excluding evidence obtained unlawfully from someone who's clearly "guilty".

But I hope you can’t get it done until I’m to old to drive. Because I haul azz and if I get stopped and the cop wants to search my car…. have at it Officer. And I’ll be BSing with him the whole time if I think he may give me a break on a ticket. Giving up my rights…. You have got to be kidding me.

Every man has his price. Neither the cost of the add-on tickets from a cop with thin skin, nor a night in jail, nor an ass-whipping are worth the Constitution to me.

.

[Guest canynracer]

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

Amen brother! The word twisting/slicing/dicing in this thread has gotten laughable.

[DaveTN]

You could solidify these statements by describing a scenario (a counterpart to the one you already shared) where the person in question should deny a search request.

Yes.

1. If you are in possession of a felony amount of drugs, or other contraband where the Officer has no discretion. You are not getting a pass, so you may as well simply refuse and possibly give your attorney something to work with.

2. You don’t think the Officer has probable cause for a search, both you and your vehicle are clean, and you just don’t like the fact that he is fishing.

3. You in some way feel that by not exercising your rights they may go away.

[Punisher84]

Amen brother! The word twisting/slicing/dicing in this thread has gotten laughable.

I'll second that. I think the truth to both sides lies closer to the middle, but it seems like it just keeps going because of the increasingly personal jabs.

Oh well,

[DaveTN]

No personal attack Dave, just questioning why you seemed to change your stance from day to day, and pointing out that when LE acts in a duplicitous manner it makes society question their methods.

I can’t answer that, I haven’t changed my stance on anything.

[DaveTN]

You've said something to this effect before. It really gets under my skin. Let me explain something very important about the document you swore to uphold and defend: it requires that all people are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. That guy you caught with a bag of dope? He's INNOCENT until he's convicted through due process of law. The Fourth Amendment protects innocent people from unreasonable search and seizure. All innocent people, regardless of suspicion or evidence, are protected by this amendment. Otherwise, the government would have no check against its authority to interfere with people's lives. There would be no safeguard against the government just randomly busting down doors and searching. Lord knows you're not going to get a check from them when they violate your Fourth Amendment guarantees. The exclusionary rule is the only check of the government in this regard--even by excluding evidence obtained unlawfully from someone who's clearly "guilty".

We were talking about when I had probable cause; what part of that don’t you understand? When there is probable cause there is no need for a warrant.

I have said before that I never asked permission to search a vehicle where I didn’t already have PC. It was not common practice to go on a fishing expedition or ask everyone you stopped if you could search their car. But yes, I watch cops also and I see them do it all the time.

I have said may times; if you feel your rights have been violated you have recourse. If you are pisssed off by court decisions that allow cops to search cars; I don’t know what to say other than our founding fathers never expected the Constitution to protect criminals or tie the hands of law enforcement.

Every man has his price. Neither the cost of the add-on tickets from a cop with thin skin, nor a night in jail, nor an ass-whipping are worth the Constitution to me..

The Constitution is a piece of paper.

I have two honorable discharges and served my county as a Police Officer. I am a Patriot. I support my county and my people; not a piece of paper. I can’t imagine myself ever turning my back on my country or its people, or violating any of the protections written on that piece of paper.

I apologize but I just can’t get my mind around the idea that letting a cop search my car somehow will damage the Constitution.

[DaveTN]

Dave,

I've got to run now, on my way to Virginia (thank God for reciprocity ).

Quick question, would there ever be a time (for example, running late, obviously rookie LEO etc.) where you yourself would refuse a request for a search?

I'll read when I next get to a computer.

Thanks.

That’s a pretty broad question. I wouldn’t piss off a rookie; that probably wouldn’t end well. If the cop is being decent and I really need to be somewhere I would just tell him that, and ask him to write me a ticket and let me go. If I get vibes that it’s a bad cop I can’t think of anywhere I could need to be in such a hurry that I would risk taking on a bad cop. I have worked with bad cops and after I left, one of them I didn’t get along with stopped me. I hadn’t done anything but I ended up in jail for 14 hours. I knew when I was doing it that I was poking a dog with a stick, I just didn’t think he would bite; I was wrong.