Reasonable Suspicion/Reasonable Cause

[GhstFace38]

I'll still mount up everyday and do my job as best I can.

I'd do anything to protect/help ANYONE on this board as well as anyone I come into contact with at work.

It's an oath I took and one I take very seriously. I would never violate anyone's rights or overstep my boundaries.

Edited June 5, 2008 by GhstFace38

[Guest jackdog]

Well heres my 25 cents worth. Never help an adversary. Should a police office start playing the multi question game with me, he has made himself my adversary because of these unwarranted questions and he is not going to get any help from me. If some one here views this as me against them then feel free do so. This is America not Nazi Germany or the old soviet union. My fore fathers gave me these protections and I'm not going to easily give them up. Look at what has happened due to the patriot act.

[Punisher84]

I completely agree...and if we ever meet, first round is on me.

I got second!

[Guest c_o_jones]

I will be courteous to any police officer who I come into contact with.

Respect, however is something that you must earn from me.

I believe the justification "you have nothing to hide, right?" is kind of stupid.

I reject the premise that the average joe (myself included)

is engaged in criminal activity until proven innocent.

I pay my taxes, I pay my bills, I work for a living.

I have nothing to hide, but something to protect,

and <hint hint> it isn't your bad apple's sorry

@$$-got-kicked-in-high-school, badge is too heavy ego.

I am referring to the minority of cops, I believe it is less than 10%,

equivalent to the number of morons we encounter in general society,

and I will bet the cops following this thread know exactly which personality disorder types

(maybe within their own departments or nearby agencies) I am talking about.

These few "bad apples" are the eroders of the public's trust, and if that continues,

it will only serve to make every good cop's job more difficult.

I feel I should mention that some of my best friends are cops and troopers.

Maybe that is why I don't feel or see this as an anti-cop thing,

but it is really just an anti-moron thing, IMHO...

[GhstFace38]

Anti-moron, Anti-bad cops thread I agree with. Cop bashing I do no agree with.

Protect your rights, yes, I agree 110%.

Like I said, as long as folks here don't see every LEO as bad then I think we've accomplished something. The majority are good people.

We sure as hell don't do it for the money, that I can assure you.

[Fallguy]

I'll still mount up everyday and do my job as best I can.

I'd do anything to protect/help ANYONE on this board as well as anyone I come into contact with at work.

It's an oath I took and one I take very seriously. I would never violate anyone's rights or overstep my boundaries.

That's great GhstFace38....I'm glad you and ones like you are the majority out there.

[Guest darkstar]

Anti-moron, Anti-bad cops thread I agree with. Cop bashing I do no agree with.

Protect your rights, yes, I agree 110%.

Like I said, as long as folks here don't see every LEO as bad then I think we've accomplished something. The majority are good people.

We sure as hell don't do it for the money, that I can assure you.

So why do it then? For the free donuts? Just kidding, just kidding.....I don't think anyone in here is thinking that ALL cops are bad and deserve ridicule and scorn. I'll be the first to be thankful for those who serve and do what has got to be a very tough job. That being said, I'll be the first to heap unmitigated crap on a bum cop. Sure there are bad apples in all professions, no question. But those bad apples don't have the power to detain you, deprive you of your liberty, or make your life a living hell like a P.O.S. cop can.

[Guest slothful1]

I am one of the nicest guys you will meet. I believe in treating people the way I would want my family treated. At my PD, we have a mirror when you walk out to the street that says "Is this who you would want dealing with your family."

Do you want someone rummaging through your family's possessions without a darn good reason (i.e., probable cause)?

[The Rabbi]

So why do it then? For the free donuts? Just kidding, just kidding.....I don't think anyone in here is thinking that ALL cops are bad and deserve ridicule and scorn. I'll be the first to be thankful for those who serve and do what has got to be a very tough job. That being said, I'll be the first to heap unmitigated crap on a bum cop. Sure there are bad apples in all professions, no question. But those bad apples don't have the power to detain you, deprive you of your liberty, or make your life a living hell like a P.O.S. cop can.

No, the various benefits like medical insurance and pension that people in the private sector only dream about.

That of course is not a motivator in and of itself for most people. But it sure doesnt hurt. And I remember that whenever I'm solicited by the "Patrolman's Benevolent Fund" and suchlike.

[Guest slothful1]

We sure as hell don't do it for the money, that I can assure you.

I think that actually adds to the negative preconception, for at least some folks. I'd much rather deal with a cop who just does the job to pay his bills instead of a mall-ninja-with-a-badge who is willing to take low pay in order to get off on some kind of gun-totin' power trip.

[Guest rj8806]

I get the feeling you believe that anyone who hasn't served in the military is a second class citizen not worthy of protection by the constitution, is that a fair statement of your stance?

NOT AT ALL.....Everyone in this country has a right to freedom whether you served or not and apparently I have not made my self clear or my statement has been mis-interpreted(sp?).

What I was getting at is someone who has not done anything wrong should not give a cop a hard time when he asks to look inside your vehicle. Whether they feel it is right or wrong, why would you want to make it hard on the LEO and yourself and not allow him/her to look? Just because you can is not a viable answer as far as I am concerned.

[Guest rj8806]

+1 Rabbi.

Richard, thank you for your service, but that in no way entitles you more rights than any other citizen in this country. Based on your thoughts would I have more rights than you because of more combat experience or medals or total time served. The answer is hell no, we are both citizens of a great nation that we chose to serve, nothing more. The guy that does not consent to a search because he believes in his or her constitutional rights is every bit as much of a patriot as one who served in combat. From my stand point your additude is not becoming to a veteran of the armed forces of the United States of America. For the record I'm not against LEO's, but I'm against, laws that allow Leo's liberties to my rights. I will never consent to a search of my vehicle or my domain, go get a warrant, then look all you like.bad Leos are probably in the 10 to 15 percent range from where I sit.

Thank you but once again, I am NOT entitled to more rights than any other American citizen whether they served or not. That is not what I was saying or meant. It is very easy for words to be mis understood when typing them and obviously that is exactly what is happening here.

I just don't understand why anyone would make it harder on a LEO or themselves just because they can, unless they have somehting to hide?

[I_Like_Pie]

---------------------------

...I respectfully do NOT submit to a search of my vehicle.

...am I being detained?

...am I under arrest?

...am I free to go?

---------------------------

This + manners + not really doing any thing wrong to begin with = Have a nice day

[Guest jackdog]

Thank you but once again, I am NOT entitled to more rights than any other American citizen whether they served or not. That is not what I was saying or meant. It is very easy for words to be mis understood when typing them and obviously that is exactly what is happening here.

I just don't understand why anyone would make it harder on a LEO or themselves just because they can, unless they have something to hide?

Let's assume we mis understood you. Now there are various reasons why I do not agree with you. 1. Some cops don't always tell the truth. 2. If an officer is asking me if he can search he is probably fishing ( won't allow that).

3. If I have done nothing wrong other than a traffic stop and I'm not hiding booze drugs whatever, why would I want to give a cop the opportunity to search my vehicle.

4. Our constitutional rights are the most important thing we have as US citizens, we should never allow anyone to take them from us at there whim.

5. The more folks that subscribe to your theory the more our rights will be abused.

Why would you want to make it easier for people to abuse your rights. By your analogy I guess if a no knock warrant were served on you that would be fine because you had nothing to hide.

Edited June 5, 2008 by jackdog

[saintsfanbrian]

This isn't making it harder on the LEO it simply is not making it EASY for them. If the LEO has a true reason to search my vehicle then he can produce a dog or a coworker or at the very least articulate that reason. Simply stating that he has probable cause is not a reason.

I would not allow an officer in to my house with out a warrant. Why? Maybe one of the contractors who were there fixing the air conditioner had a bit of dope in his pocket and maybe he accidentally dropped it. It isn't mine, I don't use the stuff, but guess who would get the ticket/arrested because of its mere existence.

The same goes for my car. If a buddy of mine happened to be a dope smoker and his stash accidentally fell out of his pocket while I was giving him a lift home who do you think would get the ticket if the cop "had probable cause" to search my vehicle and I "having nothing to hide" just let him? Not my buddy who is at home searching his house for his stash. I also can assure you that my buddy will not be calling up the DA to say that it was his stash.

There are lots of reasons NOT to let an officer search your vehicle.

P.S. I don't smoke dope, I don't hang out with people who do.

Edited June 5, 2008 by saintsfanbrian

[Guest rj8806]

Let's assume we mis understood you. Now there are various reasons why I do not agree with you. 1. Some cops don't always tell the truth. 2. If an officer is asking me if he can search he is probably fishing ( won't allow that).

3. If I have done nothing wrong other than a traffic stop and I'm not hiding booze drugs whatever, why would I want to give a cop the opportunity to search my vehicle.

4. Our constitutional rights are the most important thing we have as US citizens, we should never allow anyone to take them from us at there whim.

5. The more folks that subscribe to your theory the more our rights will be abused.

Why would you want to make it easier for people to abuse your rights. By your analogy I guess if a no knock warrant were served on you that would be fine because you had nothing to hide.

The only other way I can put it(and will probably be mis-understood again) is by making it harder on him, then you make yourself a target for him everytime he sees you. By allowing him to search the vehicle and not finding anything, then chances are, the next time he sees you(or pulls you over), you'll be alright. I understand it is your right to not allow him to search, I just think it will be better on everyone involved, if you just let him do his job.

as for your last statement, I would ask why they were there but ultimately, I have a wife and 2 children and pissing off a LEO is not my idea of a good idea. I would let them in to look. I don't smoke dope or engage in anything illegal so I have nothing to hide. On the other hand, pissing off a LEO and getting on their "bad side" is not very bright either. The last thing I want is for my 12 year old daughter seeing her dad hauled off in cuffs.

Edited June 5, 2008 by rj8806

[Guest canynracer]

That's where we don't see eye to eye, joining the military, IMO, is our duty, not a job. Anyone who is physically able to serve, should serve. Every male in my family either joined or was drafted and I feel that every male alive who is able to fight to protect our freedom and rights as a United States citizen, should. If it were my choice, I would start the draft up again.

Richard

LOL...wow, glad its not your choice....

[Guest rj8806]

LOL...wow, glad its not your choice....

As I am sure many people feel the same way. It's just how I was raised. I come from a military family and feel like it is our duty, not a "job".

[saintsfanbrian]

As Mars signature quotes Robert E. Lee.....

Duty is the sublimest word in the language. You can never do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less.

Edited June 5, 2008 by saintsfanbrian

[KahrMan]

The only other way I can put it(and will probably be mis-understood again) is by making it harder on him, then you make yourself a target for him everytime he sees you. By allowing him to search the vehicle and not finding anything, then chances are, the next time he sees you(or pulls you over), you'll be alright. I understand it is your right to not allow him to search, I just think it will be better on everyone involved, if you just let him do his job.

as for your last statement, I would ask why they were there but ultimately, I have a wife and 2 children and pissing off a LEO is not my idea of a good idea. I would let them in to look. I don't smoke dope or engage in anything illegal so I have nothing to hide. On the other hand, pissing off a LEO and getting on their "bad side" is not very bright either. The last thing I want is for my 12 year old daughter seeing her dad hauled off in cuffs.

Wow. If an officer gets pissed that you did not allow him to search your vehicle he does not need to be an officer. If an officer is vindictive enough to make you a target then he clearly believes he is above the law and the laws do not apply to him. Why would any reasonable officer get mad for you following the law. The law says he is not allowed to search your vehicle without probable cause.

[Guest dotsun]

I, in no way, singled out the non combative support personel. I did try to single out anyone who never served in any form or fashion and thinks they have the "right" to refuse a LEO the opportunity to look in their vehicle.

Maybe my post came across wrong and maybe I stepped on toes but correct me if I am wrong.... The poster said what gets him riled up is someone who "gives away" their rights so easily. My point was since he never served in any fashion and is only enjoying the fruits of OUR labor(and by OUR, I mean anyone who served in any fashion in any branch), he should not refuse a LEO the chance to search his car if he (the LEO) feels like he needs to.

I have been pulled over twice since acquiring my HCP and both times, I presented my drivers license and HCP card and then stepped out of the car and allowed him to have a look. I have nothing to hide. Maybe he does illegal activities while in his car and for that, doesn't want to get busted? I don't know, but for someone who never served to go off on a rant about his/her rights, when all they did to get those rights was pop out of their momma, is just wrong.

That's what gets me riled up.

Richard

RJ,

Thanks for clearing that up, this post is the one that led me astray on your point of view. The part I put in bold in particular had me confused.

[The Rabbi]

Wow. If an officer gets pissed that you did not allow him to search your vehicle he does not need to be an officer. If an officer is vindictive enough to make you a target then he clearly believes he is above the law and the laws do not apply to him. Why would any reasonable officer get mad for you following the law. The law says he is not allowed to search your vehicle without probable cause.

+1

I honestly don't care whether the officer thinks I'm being a smart-ass or uncooperative or whatever. I do care that laws are followed and rights respected. And if he wants to search without a warrant or probable cause then I'm going to be the one who gets vindictive, writing him up and making complaints with his dept.

Respecting the law is fine. Fearing Johnny Law is not.

And Dotsun, thanks for dragging out the relevant post. I don't see how that could be misinterpreted.

[Guest rj8806]

Maybe I misunderstood the topic at hand? The title of this thread says Reasonable suspicion/Reasonable Cause. All of my posts were in the intent that an officer states he has RS/RC and asks to search your vehicle. I took the posts as meaning if he(the LEO) does not have a warrant but states he has RS/RC, that most of you would deny him/her the opportunity? Did I misunderstand this?

Rabbi....I see that you are from Nashville but I live in a small po-dunk town where the officers know everyone. Pissing them off and becoming a "target" for them is not in my best interest.

[KahrMan]

Maybe I misunderstood the topic at hand? The title of this thread says Reasonable suspicion/Reasonable Cause. All of my posts were in the intent that an officer states he has RS/RC and asks to search your vehicle. I took the posts as meaning if he(the LEO) does not have a warrant but states he has RS/RC, that most of you would deny him/her the opportunity? Did I misunderstand this?

If the officer has probable cause you can not refuse the search. I think the misunderstanding came when you talked about refusing the search. The only time you can refuse a search is if there is not pc.

[The Rabbi]

If he asks you, he doesn't have PC. If he has PC he won't ask you. And if he has PC then there is really no way to refuse. I would make clear that I was doing this under duress and did not give permission. But that would be the extent of it.

As for living in small towns, yeah. That's a problem. If the cops take it personally well OK. That isn't my fault.