Stand your ground? What do you think?

[Guest 6.8 AR]

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/story/19859545/2012/10/18/neighbors-altercation-ends-with-one-shot-and-killed

It appears that way to me. Of course, if this article is true, it should be obvious. The use of

the words, "stand your ground", is a case of complicating common sense in my mind, but

it is what it is, nowadays. I posted this because I thought it might provoke some interesting

comments.

[RobertNashville]

I'm not sure why the media or even, in this case, the sheriff's office uses the phrase "stand your ground" other than ignorance or for hype.

Either a person has a right to defend his life or he doesn't...either the shooter had just reason to believe his life was in danger or he didn't; I don't see how "stand your ground" even enters into that.

I think most, although not all, sane people (pro or anti gun alike) acknowledge that a person has a basic right to defend himself and from this brief story, it seems as if this man had good reason to be in fear for his life...I expect no charges to be filed unless there is a lot more to the story that we currently have.

[Sam1]

really depends on what actually happened, if the guy showed his gun first it would be a different story. if the knife guy started it, it was justified.

[RobertNashville]

really depends on what actually happened, if the guy showed his gun first it would be a different story. if the knife guy started it, it was justified.

Well, as recent events have taught us, it's not nearly that simple - if the person shot was a 17 year old black kid in a hoodie all bets are off as even our "President" will weigh in on the matter.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

This will be one that will be difficult, like the "other" one in Florida, except for the racial implications, as far as I

am concerned, as I don't recall any witnesses, but the man with the knife had a colorful past.

I'm confident that if this case is valid for SYG, the media will drop it like a fly if it won't help the narrative in the

other case.

Don't you just love this stuff?

[Sam1]

Well, as recent events have taught us, it's not nearly that simple - if the person shot was a 17 year old black kid in a hoodie all bets are off as even our "President" will weigh in on the matter.

Good point, completely forgot that a person's race affects innocence or guilt. If the man with the gun was a minority, he was clearly defending his own life. If the man with a knife was a minority, clearly the gun toting redneck was a racist and committed a hate crime. If both are minorities, it will be written off as an accident.

[E4 No More]

I'm not sure why the media or even, in this case, the sheriff's office uses the phrase "stand your ground" other than ignorance or for hype.

Either a person has a right to defend his life or he doesn't...either the shooter had just reason to believe his life was in danger or he didn't; I don't see how "stand your ground" even enters into that.

I think most, although not all, sane people (pro or anti gun alike) acknowledge that a person has a basic right to defend himself and from this brief story, it seems as if this man had good reason to be in fear for his life...I expect no charges to be filed unless there is a lot more to the story that we currently have.

I disagree. When I was stationed in 29 Palms, CA the law made it perfectly clear that your house is not your castle, and that if someone broke in threatening to kill you then you were expected to go as far as jump from a second story window to escape rather than use deadly force. Of course, the argument could be made that California law-makers are insane.

[RobertNashville]

I disagree. When I was stationed in 29 Palms, CA the law made it perfectly clear that your house is not your castle, and that if someone broke in threatening to kill you then you were expected to go as far as jump from a second story window to escape rather than use deadly force. Of course, the argument could be made that California law-makers are insane.

Well I did say "most, although not all sane people" didn't I???

If you live in a state like CA or IL where insane people are electing equally insane people to their state legislatures you are going to get insane laws as a result - that's how you wind up with idiotic laws like not having a right to defend yourself even in your own home in the middle of the night if you have a third story bedroom window you can jump out of rather than defend yourself...it's apparently how you get a legislature to make carrying in parks legal in TN except, of course, in one of the most dangerous cities in the country (Memphis). ROTFLMAO

Edited October 19, 2012 by RobertNashville

[DaveTN]

Everyone wants to throw out the “Stand Your Groundâ€, “Duty to Retreat†“Make My Day†or some other buzz phrase that has little or nothing to do with the shooting.

If you believe what the victim said; the only buzz phrases that apply here is “Reasonable Person†and “Immediate Danger of Death or Great Bodily Harmâ€. Those are my own personal tests for the use of deadly force and although I have not checked with each and every state, I think that interpretation will serve me well in all 50 states.

Oh yeah, I forgot one other phrase that applies; “Don’t bring a knife to a gunfightâ€.

[E4 No More]

I DID say "most, although not all sane people" didn't I???

Certainly, if you live in a state like CA or IL where insane people are electing equally insane people to their state legislatures you are going to get insane laws as a result - that's how you wind up with idiotic laws like not having a right to defend yourself even in your own home in the middle of the night if you have a third story bedroom window you can jump out of rather than defend yourself.

It makes you just want to bitch-slap the entire set of law-makers, doesn't it?

[E4 No More]

Everyone wants to throw out the “Stand Your Groundâ€, “Duty to Retreat†“Make My Day†or some other buzz phrase that has little or nothing to do with the shooting.

If you believe what the victim said; the only buzz phrases that apply here is “Reasonable Person†and “Immediate Danger of Death or Great Bodily Harmâ€. Those are my own personal tests for the use of deadly force and although I have not checked with each and every state, I think that interpretation will serve me well in all 50 states.

Oh yeah, I forgot one other phrase that applies; “Don’t bring a knife to a gunfightâ€.

The core of the entire situation!

[Jesse]

Wish i could move to my own planet sometimes and get away from the people in this world. Why cant everyone just be nice. And not do crime....blah.

[mikegideon]

The core of the entire situation!

Yep. He nailed it again.

[Links2k]

Wish i could move to my own planet sometimes and get away from the people in this world.

You can...become a Mormon! Ba da bing!

Just kidding. It's hard trying to be a good guy in this world.

[RobertNashville]

...although I have not checked with each and every state, I think that interpretation will serve me well in all 50 states...

I don't have time to look for the citations at the moment but I do believe that there are some states where the duty to retreat is carried to an extreme....I'm certain (and will try to find the source) that there was even a case where a victim who defended himself was charged and found guilty (not sure of the specific charge) because, while in his own home and I believe at night, he shot an intruder....the finding of guilty was based on the fact that the victim could have jumped out of a SECOND STORY window rather than defend himself.

So...while I think most states will back up your interpretation; I don't think all will.

[E4 No More]

I don't have time to look for the citations at the moment but I do believe that there are some states where the duty to retreat is carried to an extreme....I'm certain (and will try to find the source) that there was even a case where a victim who defended himself was charged and found guilty (not sure of the specific charge) because, while in his own home and I believe at night, he shot an intruder....the finding of guilty was based on the fact that the victim could have jumped out of a SECOND STORY window rather than defend himself.

So...while I think most states will back up your interpretation; I don't think all will.

That was California.

[Jonnin]

Is taking a step backwards from the knife waving idiot "standing your ground" ? Nope, he moved away first, and some states even have laws or rules that the defender has to try to get away first. IMHO he tried to get away and could not, and then shot, which is different from stand your ground, and a more clear cut case of self defense.

Where stand your ground gets nutty is the provoke and defend case, which I do not know if any have happened (possibly trevor case?). Aggravating someone verbally or whatever then standing your ground when they attack... is questionable.

Another comment: he fired from inside the pocket and made a perfect shot? Wow. I would probably gut-shoot the attacker if I tried that.

[RobertNashville]

Sorry...double post!

Edited October 19, 2012 by RobertNashville

[RobertNashville]

That was California.

Why am I not surprised???

I was betting either CA, IL or WI

[S&WForty]

I don't have time to look for the citations at the moment but I do believe that there are some states where the duty to retreat is carried to an extreme....I'm certain (and will try to find the source) that there was even a case where a victim who defended himself was charged and found guilty (not sure of the specific charge) because, while in his own home and I believe at night, he shot an intruder....the finding of guilty was based on the fact that the victim could have jumped out of a SECOND STORY window rather than defend himself.

I recall reading where one of the New England state's law says you must allow the intruder a clear path to retreat. Only if the intruder has the ability to retreat but chooses to attack you can you defend yourself with deadly force.

I forgot that stat - how many feet a charging person can cover in 2.x seconds. You don't have time to stop and think, "Does this poor person in need of social rehabilitation have a path to leave my home? Is he going to turn and leave or is he going to run at me?"

Most of us are good shots when that mean target is a few yards away. With adrenaline flowing in the heat of the moment, I'm not sure. I don't want to lose valuable time while obeying a stupid law. Thank God not all states are wacko.

[DaveTN]

I have a question, in these types of discussions there is always people stating that in “some states†you are required to retreat.

I don’t doubt that some states may have laws that may say you must retreat if that will deescalate the situation and you can do so safely. (Although I don’t know which states that may be.) But what states have laws that do not allow you to “Stand Your Ground†when an attacker is pointing a gun at you or threatening you with a knife at arm’s length.

Or to put it this way… You are justified in the use of deadly force when a reasonable person would believe you were in immediate danger of death or great bodily harm. In what states would that statement not be true?

[Paladin132]

New Jersey requires you to flee your own home I able to from my understanding.

[DaveS]

If I'm 100% right in my actions, I ain't running from Nobody!!!!

Dave S

[DaveTN]

If I'm 100% right in my actions, I ain't running from Nobody!!!!

I’m too old to run; all I can do is stand and deliver.

[DaveS]

I’m too old to run; all I can do is stand and deliver.

Same here Dave.

Dave S