Walmart Refuses Guns Sale to Woman!?!

[RobertNashville]

I'm not buying this story. It's only one side...

The only reason why we have one one side of the story is because that WalMart refused to tell their side. That being the case, I don't consider that a "plus" in WalMart's favor.

[Smith]

The criteria for a straw purchase is rather vague and interpretive. The liability and responsibility is all put on the FFL. There is no requirement to report an attempt. You can gift a gun our give it to anyone legal to own a firearm, but the wording of the laws seem to indicate you can't knowingly buy a firearm for the sole purpose of someone else, thus question 1 on the 4473.

Most FFL's aren't going to give the benefit of the doubt when it gets too gray because they don't want to jeopardize the license. There is a lot of interpretation and judgment put on the FFL. Sometimes it is obvious and sometimes it is every shade in between.

Ahhhhh, gun laws! So full of I ambiguity and contradictions. Kinda like tax code.<img src='http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />

Edited October 20, 2012 by AK Guy

[TMF]

Complaining about bad customer service at Walmart is like complaining about your prostitute having herpes. If you like low prices there are some compromises you have to make.

[dralarms]

Can a business owner deny service to anybody they chose for any reason they chose? I'd say the only correct answer is, maybe.

As I understand it, the FCRA guarantees all people the right to "full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of sex, race, color, religion, or national origin" and, the right of public accommodation is guaranteed to the disabled per the ADA, which precludes discrimination by businesses on the basis of disability. In addition, many states have passed their own Civil Rights Acts that provide broader protections than the Federal Civil Rights Act.

To just say, without any equivocation, that a business can deny service to anyone for any reason...as with most blanket statements when words like "all" or "any" are used, it's not true; at least not always true. Perhaps more to the point, while you may deny service to anyone for any reason; it's likely you won't do that for very long or very often without some unpleasant repercussions.

With regards to this WalMart; I think, if this woman pushed the issue, she could have WalMart by the short hairs; not because it was a "firearms transaction" but because this clerk didn't seem to think that this "little woman" could handle such a big gun.

Well I refused to sell a man a service not long ago, it was simply because he was a cheap ass and I got tired of him whining every time I sent him a bill. Long story short, he told me that I wasn't going to charge him xx for moving him alarm, I gave him his parts and told him he needed to find another sucker because I was done.

[Lumber_Jack]

My wife went and bought me a gun for Christmas last year at Academy Sports. She outright told the clerk it was for her husband, hell she even called it a Rugger instead of Ruger. They didn't hesitate to let her buy it. I understand that some husbands/ wives can't own guns so they get their spouses to buy it, but if both husband and wife are there, I don't see the "straw buy" theory. Why can't the dealer just run both backgrounds and sell the gun? Can you only fill out one 4473 per purchase? Can one be called in without a transaction pending?

[RobertNashville]

Well I refused to sell a man a service not long ago, it was simply because he was a cheap ass and I got tired of him whining every time I sent him a bill. Long story short, he told me that I wasn't going to charge him xx for moving him alarm, I gave him his parts and told him he needed to find another sucker because I was done.

I agree that a business has the ability/power to refuse service to a any customer for any reason (and oftentimes it's more than justified)...my point was that doing so is sometimes illegal and/or actionable in court or even cost enough sales that the business surfers.

[RobertNashville]

Running a background check on both a husband and wife would only be effective if it was a spouse doing a straw purchase for the other spouse but even if that is what's happening; is that what the BATF really concerned about?

I would think the "straw purchases" everyone, including the Feds should be worried about are the ones when a stranger is buying for a criminal (or buying lots of guns for criminals).

What I don't get, and maybe someone who knows can explain to me, is what is the liability of the FFL is the FFL does sell to someone and it later (even much later) is found to have been a straw purchase?

I don't think it would be that difficult for someone with a little bit of brain power to go into a gun store and buy a weapon and give absolutely no reason to the store to make it suspicious that it's actually a straw purchase. So, if it later turns out to have been one, is there really any liability on the part of the business???

I would think that, if there is a substantial pattern of an FFL conducting these sales that would be actionable but I somehow doubt that the FFL can be held responsible for anything unless it can be shown that hey knew or should have known what was going on.

[runco]

Someone said just run a back ground check on both, and be done. The background check alone does not relieve the legal transaction burden on the FFL. The FFL has to consider other factors before authorizing the transaction, i.e. obvious 4473 response, buyer appearance (under the influence, odd behavior, harmful oral statements), and is this a straw or not. As a former FFL dealer myself, the shear hint of a might be straw, I would kill the sale period. Even if was an accidential comment or error made by the would be buyer. Obviously the hint of a straw is very subjective, and will never be solved in a black & white world and especially on a gun board. I would imagine greedy and/or ignorant FFL can be blind and deaf coupled with clear background check, and a correct answer 4473, can make the transcation. "I" wasn't one of those FFL, and this ethical Wal-Mart associate was not either. I guess that is why I am sort of passionate on this posting. I guess if you are denied a sale at Wal-Mart or any other FFL, just puff up, never shop there again, and post on a gun forum your frustrations. This way it gives people like me and others a chance to type responses either for or against, or just read as a lurker. Otherwise, we just have to post pictures of our kittens/cats which was kinda of fun.

[DaveTN]

Obviously the hint of a straw is very subjective, and will never be solved in a black & white world and especially on a gun board.

That pretty much says it all. You can mess around for a long time running multiple backgrounds checks, checking with other people, hand wringing, or you can send them on their way. The risk isn't worth messing with it.

[RobertNashville]

Someone said just run a back ground check on both, and be done. The background check alone does not relieve the legal transaction burden on the FFL. The FFL has to consider other factors before authorizing the transaction, i.e. obvious 4473 response, buyer appearance (under the influence, odd behavior, harmful oral statements), and is this a straw or not. As a former FFL dealer myself, the shear hint of a might be straw, I would kill the sale period. Even if was an accidential comment or error made by the would be buyer. Obviously the hint of a straw is very subjective, and will never be solved in a black & white world and especially on a gun board. I would imagine greedy and/or ignorant FFL can be blind and deaf coupled with clear background check, and a correct answer 4473, can make the transcation. "I" wasn't one of those FFL, and this ethical Wal-Mart associate was not either. I guess that is why I am sort of passionate on this posting. I guess if you are denied a sale at Wal-Mart or any other FFL, just puff up, never shop there again, and post on a gun forum your frustrations. This way it gives people like me and others a chance to type responses either for or against, or just read as a lurker. Otherwise, we just have to post pictures of our kittens/cats which was kinda of fun.

I agree, if an FFL really thinks there may be a straw purchase issue then he has every right to refuse the sale...I just don't think that's the case here...I understand that you feel otherwise but given the story as we know it (and since this WalMart denied comment all we have is this story as we know it); the whole "straw purchase" excuse sounds...well...like an excuse to me.

My opinion, based on the story is that a stupid WalMart clerk (who probably wouldn't know a real straw purchaser even if he/she was wearing a sign identifying him as such) either out of stupidity or out of trying to be a big frog in a small pond and didn't think this petite lady should be buying such a big gun.

Just my $0.02

[Clod Stomper]

The Walmart closest to me has some idiots working there.

....

They moved the guy out to automotive after that.

Wow. Which one was this. I want to make sure that I never take my vehicle there for a tire change. Or anything else.

[Smith]

My wife went and bought me a gun for Christmas last year at Academy Sports. She outright told the clerk it was for her husband, hell she even called it a Rugger instead of Ruger. They didn't hesitate to let her buy it. I understand that some husbands/ wives can't own guns so they get their spouses to buy it, but if both husband and wife are there, I don't see the "straw buy" theory. Why can't the dealer just run both backgrounds and sell the gun? Can you only fill out one 4473 per purchase? Can one be called in without a transaction pending?

Background checks are run in conjunction with a firearm only so running it on both people would be problematic. Add to it the extra $10 and the fact that the FFL has to account for all the 4473's with individual transaction numbers it's not really doable.

[Guest blackbeltchick]

I hate going to walmart, usually it's over crowed and not all employees know how to help you when help is needed. That's mainly " IMO " because walmart and other retail companies don't always put the employees with the correct experience into the correct dept. I can't even count how many times I had to help the employee help me when buying ammo. ~~ just saying~~

[Guest TNBrat]

[quote name='blackbeltchick' timestamp='1352042530' post='838841'].... I can't even count how many times I had to help the employee help me when buying ammo. ~~ just saying~~[/quote]

That happens every time we go to the S. Jackson store. It wasn't so bad in Milan, but still. We get tired of chasing down an associate just to buy ammo.

Easy fix...just don't shop there, but they've got the best prices on ammo & milk. So, if I'm there picking up one I might as well get the other lol.

Walmart is evil but have made themselves indispensable.


TNBrat Hiding in the woods…

[DaveTN]

[quote name='TNBrat' timestamp='1352047616' post='838894']
Easy fix...just don't shop there, but they've got the best prices on ammo & milk. So, if I'm there picking up one I might as well get the other lol.
[/quote]
I don’t drink milk; all I have to go there for is American made ammo. As soon as I find a better place online I’ll order it and won’t have to go there at all. But so far that hasn’t happened.

They are the indispensable ammo store and from the looks of things they might become the indispensable gun store. [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/TourGlide/Web%20Stuff/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Dolomite`s Breezy]

Sad truth is.. they are as ammo goes the best deals around.. I have not seen any better prices anywhere unless you catch one online somewhere.. and by the time you pay for shipping.. well.. ya know..lol
And they do have some good stuff there .....its just convenient to run in and get what you need..

[Dolomite_supafly]

[quote name='Sour Kraut' timestamp='1352311711' post='841125']
Sad truth is.. they are as ammo goes the best deals around.. I have not seen any better prices anywhere unless you catch one online somewhere.. and by the time you pay for shipping.. well.. ya know..lol
And they do have some good stuff there .....its just convenient to run in and get what you need..
[/quote]

And I just bought 3 more bricks. No it isn't because of the elections results. I shoot a brick a week so this is enough for the rest of the month.

Dolomite

[Guest TNBrat]

You're right Sour Kraut. And like I've said before. Walmart may be evil but they're doing a damn good job at making themselves indispensable.


TNBrat Hiding in the woods…

[SGilbert]

Walmart is far from indispensable (IMO). And when we dont take a stand against things (or bad business practices) we get what we deserve.
Id be scared to death to trust someone at walmart to change my oil or put tires on my truck..... and i aint buying guns from them.

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='DaveTN' timestamp='1352052963' post='838935']
I don’t drink milk; all I have to go there for is American made ammo. As soon as I find a better place online I’ll order it and won’t have to go there at all. But so far that hasn’t happened.

They are the indispensable ammo store and from the looks of things they might become the indispensable gun store. [img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/TourGlide/Web%20Stuff/biggrin.gif[/img]
[/quote]Have you looked at ammunitiontogo.com ?

I don't know if their prices are as good or worse or whatever (because WallyWorld is against my religion) but I've had exceptional service from them and they usually have what I want when I want it. Edited November 8, 2012 by RobertNashville

[Oh Shoot]

[quote name='SGilbert' timestamp='1352407288' post='841993']
Walmart is far from indispensable (IMO). .... and i aint buying guns from them.[/quote]

[quote name='RobertNashville' timestamp='1352409063' post='842016']
.... (because WallyWorld is against my religion) [/quote]

I'm buying ammo and guns form Ruger, Colt, Remington, Mossberg, Smith & Wesson, Winchester, CCI, Federal, etc., and don't much care which place stocks it for the best price, and files the 4473s.

An American company, hiring Americans, selling as many American made products as anyone else, making money for American investors and paying American taxes. Only in America could such an American success story have so many American detractors.

- OS Edited November 9, 2012 by OhShoot

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='OhShoot' timestamp='1352432144' post='842249']I'm buying ammo and guns form Ruger, Colt, Remington, Mossberg, Smith & Wesson, Winchester, CCI, Federal, etc., and don't much care which place stocks it for the best price, and files the 4473s.

An American company, hiring Americans, selling as many American made products as anyone else, making money for American investors and paying American taxes. Only in America could such an American success story have so many American detractors.[/quote]

And I buy my guns and ammo from businesses that exist to support the firearms community and which are generally, albeit not always, owned and staffed by firearm enthusiasts like myself because I care a more that those business continue to exist a lot more than I care if WalMart exists.

[Dolomite_supafly]

[quote name='RobertNashville' timestamp='1352448521' post='842332']
And I buy my guns and ammo from businesses that exist to support the firearms community and which are generally, albeit not always, owned and staffed by firearm enthusiasts like myself because I care a more that those business continue to exist a lot more than I care if WalMart exists.
[/quote]

And how much more are you willing to spend to support those businesses? 20%, 33% or even a 50% mark up? And this is during normal times, not the "scary" times.

I have meet more unscrupulous dealers than I have met unscrupulous Walmart employees or managers. When we had our scare 4 years, ago and with another probably coming, Walmart was about the only place I could find ammo that wasn't being gouged. The guns they sell are the same quality as any other dealer gets. They order their guns through a distributor and there is no such thing as Walmart specific guns (another lie by dealers). The distributor fills their order just like your favorite storefront.

I watched dealers with storefronts come in and buy every bit of .22 ammo at Walmart for $15 a brick. And as the customers were getting upset the dealers would tell the customers to come to XXXXXXX gunshop to buy this ammo for $30 a brick. I seen it several times by the same dealer. That is why Walmart started their six box maximum purchase, to protect the customers from the dealers who were gouging us. What other company would do that? We all forget all too soon how some of these dealers feed us fear monger stories to convince we need to buy ammo at 3x the cost. These are the same dealers who mark guns way up then try to fear customers into buying them. I remember and they are the ones who will never see a red dime of mine.

I am all for capitalism but I say if they want to mark things up beyond what the market will bear don't gripe and complain about how no one wants to buy from you. And don't try to feed me the BS line that you only make a dollar on every single sale.

I support my local dealers as well but I will not pay a premium to be able to say I have. If they have something for sale for what I feel is fair I will buy it. And what may be fair to me may not be to someone else. What is fair is a personal choice but as I said I will not pay a premium to say I have.

I bet this infuriates those honest dealers trying to making a living and do right by their cusomers. We have great ones on here as sponsors and they have great prices. We also have great dealers that have store fronts just not all of them. Bill's Outpost in the Knoxville area is a great place to deal with. Gunny's in Maryville, not so much anymore. Predator Custom shop is another honest dealer. There are going to be good ones and bad ones but I rarely forget those who burned me once.

Dolomite

[RobertNashville]

[quote name='Dolomite_supafly' timestamp='1352465655' post='842368']And how much more are you willing to spend to support those businesses? 20%, 33% or even a 50% mark up? And this is during normal times, not the "scary" times...[/quote]

Please tell me, where in my post above did I indicate that people should deal with unscrupulous, price gouging firearms dealers??? I've reread my post several times and don't see where I said anything even remotely encouraging that.

I only deal with honest dealers who have scruples and charge fair prices and if I pay a little more to do so then so be it; I have never and will never suggest anyone do otherwise.

I've never seen those kind of mark-ups you mention but if I did I wouldn't buy from such dealers. There is both truth and a worthwhile warning in the phrase "buyer beware". I don't deal with unscrupulous dealers of anything whether they are a firearms shop or hardware store or appliance dealer and I don't buy stuff from WalMart.

Edited November 9, 2012 by RobertNashville

[Oh Shoot]

[quote name='RobertNashville' timestamp='1352448521' post='842332']
And I buy my guns and ammo from businesses that exist to support the firearms community and which are generally, albeit not always, owned and staffed by firearm enthusiasts like myself because I care a more that those business continue to exist a lot more than I care if WalMart exists.
[/quote]

I would opine that any retailer who carries guns is supporting the firearms community about 100% more than those who don't sell guns.

And if there's any truth to the idea that people become more enured and receptive to firearms by seeing more of them in daily life, you can't beat your average citizen seeing those scary assault weapons at Wally's while shopping for their normal mundane items.

- OS