Walmart Refuses Guns Sale to Woman!?!

[Dolomite_supafly]

They can refuse and they have not violated any laws. In the same way anyone else can refuse to sell something. Even if they didn't think it was a straw purchase they can still refuse to sell and will not be in violation of any law or standard.

I was refused a sale of a firearm from Walmart because my signature was not ledgible. He told me I needed to sign my name ledgibly or he would refuse the sale. Every other part of the form was clear and ledgible but my signature on the back was not. I explained to him that I had signed it how I always sign legal documents and ID's. I even showed the worker several forms of ID, including a diplomatic passport, and all had the same exact signature. In the end I ripped up the 4473 and tossed it. And even though it was upsetting there is exactly squat I could do about it because they violated no laws or regulations.

Dolomite

[Guest 6.8 AR]

When I was a FFL I had a legal obligation to prohibit a straw sell, but had no obligation to report it.

How do you determine a straw buy? Is there a set criteria? The only thing I really know is that if a person

says they are buying a weapon for another person, but, other than that, what?

In all possibility, this may not even be the case with the information the article alludes to.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

They can refuse and they have not violated any laws. In the same way anyone else can refuse to sell something. Even if they didn't think it was a straw purchase they can still refuse to sell and will not be in violation of any law or standard.

I was refused a sale of a firearm from Walmart because my signature was not ledgible. He told me I needed to sign my name ledgibly or he would refuse the sale. Every other part of the form was clear and ledgible but my signature on the back was not. I explained to him that I had signed it how I always sign legal documents and ID's. I even showed the worker several forms of ID, including a diplomatic passport, and all had the same exact signature. In the end I ripped up the 4473 and tossed it. And even though it was upsetting there is exactly squat I could do about it because they violated no laws or regulations.

Dolomite

No, it just violates the law of common sense. Usually someone has a reason to do what they are doing, even though they may need no reason.

Edited October 18, 2012 by 6.8 AR

[TMF]

I'm guessing there is some key information being omitted here. Probably didn't go down as reported in this news source.

[Mike.357]

Sure they can, so that is what you would use as a defense if that female decided to sue you for discrimination? Not

saying at all I disagree with your premise that that's the way things work, but more trivial things have triggered a

dumb lawsuit. I would think the Wal-Mart manager should have been brought in to make that kind of decision. I'm

not taking sides, but I don't think it is up to Wal-Mart to make an assertion of straw buying without informing the ATF.

If it was me, I would sell the gun if legal to do so, then report the incident to the ATF and let things fall where they may.

I don't need any defense for deciding to not give service to a customer. I can refuse service just because I feel like it.

The best thing the clerk could have said was "I decline to sell to you". And then keep his mouth shut.

[piercedan]

Wait a minute, I thought you could buy a gun as a gift or for your spouse and it not be a straw purchase.

[Garufa]

Wait a minute, I thought you could buy a gun as a gift or for your spouse and it not be a straw purchase.

You can as long as the giftee is not ineligible to own or purchase a gun.

This is not rocket science people.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I don't need any defense for deciding to not give service to a customer. I can refuse service just because I feel like it.

The best thing the clerk could have said was "I decline to sell to you". And then keep his mouth shut.

No one said you did, Mike.

The article also alluded to the gun being "too much gun". I would call that a possible case for someone

filing a lawsuit. If the person behind the counter did as you said, that's fine, but allegedly a subjective

decision was made on someone's behalf without their request.

I am relating to the header of the article. You can speculate all you want, otherwise.

Edited October 19, 2012 by 6.8 AR

[RobertNashville]

Can a business owner deny service to anybody they chose for any reason they chose? I'd say the only correct answer is, maybe.

As I understand it, the FCRA guarantees all people the right to "full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of sex, race, color, religion, or national origin" and, the right of public accommodation is guaranteed to the disabled per the ADA, which precludes discrimination by businesses on the basis of disability. In addition, many states have passed their own Civil Rights Acts that provide broader protections than the Federal Civil Rights Act.

To just say, without any equivocation, that a business can deny service to anyone for any reason...as with most blanket statements when words like "all" or "any" are used, it's not true; at least not always true. Perhaps more to the point, while you may deny service to anyone for any reason; it's likely you won't do that for very long or very often without some unpleasant repercussions.

With regards to this WalMart; I think, if this woman pushed the issue, she could have WalMart by the short hairs; not because it was a "firearms transaction" but because this clerk didn't seem to think that this "little woman" could handle such a big gun.

Edited October 19, 2012 by RobertNashville

[runco]

How do you determine a straw buy? Is there a set criteria? The only thing I really know is that if a person

says they are buying a weapon for another person, but, other than that, what?

In all possibility, this may not even be the case with the information the article alludes to.

This is 20 years ago, but ATF sent me a book that I had to read about regarding many examples of straw purchases, and I recall that if I had a reason or suspicion of a straw, I must refuse the sell. While I was in business, I do not know if I was tested by ATF or there are just dump stupid people, but I recall several blantant straw attemps and subtle attempts. I once saw a guy give another man some cash, and the man came in to the counter, pointed to a certain gun, and said he would take it. He didn't even touch the gun. I refused the sale, and got into an argument. Another time, the man told his wife in front me that he wanted a particular gun, but told her to complete the 4473, I had to ask why, he didn't say anything, but she ratted him out, that he was prohibited from owning guns, well I had to stop that one. Another time, an elderly man and young man came in, the elderly man clearly stated he wanted a particular gun, but the young man started completing the 4473, and never did ask the elderly man any of the silly questions, well I refused that one too, but later they came back with a power of attorney document that had been notarized for the young man, and this time I allowed the sale. I can rattle off many more. The risk and reward in the gun business is not worth the risk (fines, lose of license, and possible jail time) over a $40 to $100 profit transaction. When in doubt lose the sale, and stay open.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Runco

[quietguy]

I have to weigh in on this one. In this situation, I have to think that you have to give the benefit of the doubt to the store. If the clerk refused the sale because the girl was too small, then he is out of line. If he thought that it was a straw sale, then he did the right thing. Walmart doesn't sell guns because they believe in the 2nd Amendment, they do it because it is profitable. I seriously doubt they have a consistant social agenda one way or another. The cost to the company for a potentially bad sale is worse than turning away a customer, which is why so many stores quit carry firearms.

I also see that the customer was trying to avoid a straw purchase, but would still defer to the store. In the same situation, I would have asked for a manager and offer to have background checks done on both of us. If mine came back rejected, I would pay for both. If both came back clean or her's came back rejected, the store would have to pay for mine. TICS can handle that on a call in (at least they could a couple of years ago), but I don't think they can online.

Edited October 19, 2012 by quietguy

[Guest 6.8 AR]

"Yesterday at Walmart I tried to buy a shotgun to keep at the house with me when Brad is gone. We live in the heart of downtown New Albany where there is a lot of foot traffic, and we believe that me having a reliable way to protect myself and our baby when Brad isn't here is just a responsible thing to do. -

Here's the kicker though. The man behind the counter looked at me in disbelief when I pointed out the beefy Mossberg 930 Tactical weapon that Brad had researched out for me and planned on taking me out shooting to get comfortable with. The man then proceeded to interrogate me about what I wanted it for and how it would be used. He said that I didn't hold it right and that I needed "something else better suited to you". He put it back in the case and firmly refused to sell it. - All because I am a petite young woman!

He threatened me with the FBI and accused me of purchasing the gun for "someone else" - namely my husband who was with me. My husband informed him that IF he was the one that would be primarily using the gun then he would have bought it himself but it was going to be mine to keep with us and practice with, so we wanted it in my name....

The manager was called at our recommendation and stood by passively as the man steamrolled across us and rattled off legalities and consequences. The man completely ignored my insistence that I have personally purchased and owned 2 pistols before and shot them as well as a couple of my husband's guns - one being a beefy shotgun. (I'm a pretty good shot too!) The man refused to sell the gun to me and the passive manager escorted us out of the store.

My husband is furious that my rights as a woman to lawfully purchase a sturdy home defense weapon, were trampled by this sexist man simply because the gun looked like too much for me! And I'm horrified that this man made me out to be some criminal for wanting to purchase a gun myself simply because he thought my husband should be the one filling out the papers! After being judged in that way I didn't feel comfortable purchasing ANYTHING from him and will be taking my business elsewhere."

"I AM OUTRAGED. The gun industry is much better than is used to be, but this remaining sexism needs to be stamped out. It is not doing the industry any good when alpha males refuse to serve woman who wish to own a gun. This is the 21st century. These cavemen need to crawl back under the rocks they came from.

I would like to know if the Clarksville Walmart refuses to sell pink guns to men, or if the sexism is only one way."

This is what I based my argument on, Mike.357. I don't know what you based yours on.

I mentioned the law of common sense, earlier, only for the reason that if one is to make a profit, they have to eventually

engage in commerce. By what's written, I am left wondering why the idea of a straw purchase is even brought up, since

it appears she wanted it for home defense while her husband was away. You certainly don't threaten someone, in this

country, with the FBI, unless you have a real big reason, or unless you're just an idiot.

I hope she went elsewhere for her purchase, and didn't receive such a crappy welcome. Like I said earlier, all I went on

was what was written above, no supposition. Sounds like the guy behind the counter was ignorant of the law, also.

[DaveTN]

"I AM OUTRAGED. The gun industry is much better than is used to be, but this remaining sexism needs to be stamped out. It is not doing the industry any good when alpha males refuse to serve woman who wish to own a gun. This is the 21st century. These cavemen need to crawl back under the rocks they came from.

I would like to know if the Clarksville Walmart refuses to sell pink guns to men, or if the sexism is only one way."

I can’t tell if that’s a serious post or not. But I wouldn’t tie anything done at Wal-Mart to any industry.

Pick out any real gun store you want and see what happens when a woman goes in to buy a gun. I would guess that in most she would be treated with the same respect as a man. And most go out of their way to help a woman.

Will she be waited on by “Alpha Males� Probably.

[Guest TNBrat]

Walmart isn't well known for their training in each department. Though I'm sure these guys are better trained than the rest. Sounds a little like a glorified stock boy was on a power trip.

I was in Walmart yesterday trying on shotguns & asked the guy if it had a plug in it & he didn't even know what I was talking about. He admitted he was just filling in & was really polite but this is the same guy that couldn't sell us ammo a few days ago… If they have the keys to unlock the cases they should have the knowledge to go with it I've only once found an actual Sporting Goods associate in our Walmart. Most of the time we have to track someone down to buy or look at anything.

[DaveTN]

Walmart isn't well known for their training in each department. Though I'm sure these guys are better trained than the rest. Sounds a little like a glorified stock boy was on a power trip.

I was in Walmart yesterday trying on shotguns & asked the guy if it had a plug in it & he didn't even know what I was talking about. He admitted he was just filling in & was really polite but this is the same guy that couldn't sell us ammo a few days ago… If they have the keys to unlock the cases they should have the knowledge to go with it I've only once found an actual Sporting Goods associate in our Walmart. Most of the time we have to track someone down to buy or look at anything.

I don’t think I care if they don’t have any training; should I care? (That’s a question not an argument )

I don’t go into Wal-Mart for anything but ammo. They have American Made ammo and the lowest cost of anywhere I can find, including on-line ordering in bulk.

I just can’t picture me asking a Wal-Mart employee anything other than maybe when my wife tells me to pick up coffee filters and I can’t find them, but certainly nothing about a gun.

[Guest TNBrat]

I don’t go into Wal-Mart for anything but ammo. They have American Made ammo and the lowest cost of anywhere I can find, including on-line ordering in bulk.

I just can’t picture me asking a Wal-Mart employee anything other than maybe when my wife tells me to pick up coffee filters and I can’t find them, but certainly nothing about a gun.

Good point. But considering they're the largest firearms dealer in the US I would hope that they would be responsible enough not to hand the gun/ammo keys to any idiot walking by the department so that they can take a break. That's all I was trying to say.

Sent from my iPhone way back in the woods…

[Jonnin]

Good point. But considering they're the largest firearms dealer in the US I would hope that they would be responsible enough not to hand the gun/ammo keys to any idiot walking by the department so that they can take a break. That's all I was trying to say.

Sent from my iPhone way back in the woods…

They do NOT do that at all. At the one I use, we have to spend 15 min to track down the person who has the keys if they are not back there (almost never are back there, actually). It gets old, but if that is what is required, I understand.

By the way, some folks are just picky about the straw purchase thing. I made that mistake ONCE at a gunshow --- wife wanted a gun, so I hand her the money and the guy has a fit over it and refuses to sell it. I even told him he could run both of our background checks if it made him happy and he still all but called us criminals. So he kept the gun and we got it elsewhere, and I always hand the money over away from the vendors now.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Jonnin

[Guest TNBrat]

They do NOT do that at all. At the one I use, we have to spend 15 min to track down the person who has the keys if they are not back there (almost never are back there, actually). It gets old, but if that is what is required, I understand.

No actually they do. Maybe not at your store but I assure you that having worked in Fulton, Germantown, Milan, Bolivar & North Jackson stores…. They do. And like I said the guy showing shotguns to me yesterday didn't have a clue.

Sent from my iPhone way back in the woods…

[RobertNashville]

I think the real moral of this story is; DON'T SHOP AT WALMART.

Especially don't shop there if you intend to buy a sophisticated, specialized and fairly expensive example of mechanical engineering (like a firearm) and expect or need to deal with a salesperson who has at least some knowledge of what he is supposed to be selling.

[RobertNashville]

Edited October 19, 2012 by RobertNashville

[TMF]

Expecting the guy at Walmart to be knowledgable of firearms is foolish. If you wan that kind of customer support, go to a real gun store. I worked in the pet department at Walmart when I was in high school; anyone expecting me to be some kind of dog or fish expert because of that would be a moron. If you want a higher level of service to someplace that specializes in the product you're purchasing and pay extra. Geez friggin' Louise. Why the hell does everyone always bitch about Walmart?

[Dolomite_supafly]

The Walmart closest to me has some idiots working there.

I was stading there when they had a call for Hydrashocks. The clerk asked the sporting goods manager if they had Hydrashock and the sporting goods manager went into a tirade about how civillians shouldn't be allowed to own HP's. I chimed in and said I carry Hydrshocks in my 1911. He got really disgusted and said civillians shouldn't be allowed to own 1911's either. I asked why and he said HP's and 1911's are designed to maim, not kill. He said the only thing civillians should have is a bolt action with FMJ rounds because they were designed to kill.

I was in there another time right after they got the first AR in 22. A couple, with a 10-12 year old son in tow, asked to see the rifle. Once the clerk cleared it they handed it to the father. He looked at it and then handed it to his son. At that point the clerk went crazy, snatching the gun away from the kid, and told the father he just broke federal law. He told her is wasn't against the law for his son to hold a gun and the clerk argued back that it was. When they asked to see the gun again the cleark refused.

And yet another example. A mother was going to buy her son his first gun, a Cricket. The mother looked at it then the clerk said they have had problems with them but he could fix it. He then whipped outhis leatherman and had the gun apart all over the counter. He they began filing various parts in the gun to fix the trigger. That time I called the store manager and she intervened the sale of the gun. They moved the guy out to automotive after that.

And finally. I was there when the clerk was going to allow a straw purchase. A husband and wife came to the counter. He was looking at guns and decided he wanted one. He told the clerk he wanted it so the clerk handed him a 4473 to fill out. He said his wife needed to fill it out because he couldn't pass the background. The clerk said it was OK and had her begin to fill it out. I walked away and told a manager. The manager was in a dead sprint heading to sporting goods. I spoke to him a few days later and he said it was bad news.

Then there is the customers, I could go on for hours about what kind of stuff I have seen in passing.

Dolomite

[quietguy]

Then there is the customers

IMHO, that is the biggest problem with Walmart.

Funny Walmart story -

I made the horrible mistake of going in to pick up a couple of last minute Christmas items at the West Nashville location a few years ago. I saw three people shoplifting in the melee, and reported it to the manager. The manager thanked me, and said that they had a pretty good handle on the situation, and to check out the garden center as I left.

As I walked out of the store, Metro Police had what looked like a cab stand setup on that side of the store. One patrol car would pull up, load up a couple of perps and pull away. The next cruiser would pull up a few seconds later and load up a couple more.

Edited October 20, 2012 by quietguy

[RobertNashville]

...Why the hell does everyone always bitch about Walmart?

At my age, I don't have enough years left on this earth to recount all the reasons.

[jgradyc]

I'm not buying this story. It's only one side. My guess would be that the clerk saw some red flags and rather than confront her directly, he made some comment about the gun not being right for her. They'll sue. WalMart will settle. The price of guns and ammo at WalMart will go up. The point is you can't get riled up about a news story. The reporters no longer care enough to get to the bottom of something. They just want to get air time or get noticed.