choose one of the two

[bayouvol]

If you only had a choice of the following two guns for concealed carry, which would you choose? The keltec p11 or the rossi 462 which is the 357 snubnose. Tell me why.

[mikegideon]

P11. It's a lot thinner, and easier to conceal.

[Mykltn]

Rossi hands down. I have owned two, one of which I still have, and both were excellent guns. I carried one for about 3 years and put over 1000 rounds through it without any issues. I even took my ccw with the Rossi snub nose and scored 100% shooting DA only. I also am not a fan of polymer guns. nothing wrong with them, I just don't like the way they feel. But my opinion based on the two would be Rossi 100%

[jgradyc]

I've never seen or held a Rossi 462, but I've owned two P11s and a Taurus 85 38 Special. I'd pick the P11 for the following reasons.

Size: The P11 is more concealable because it is thinner, smaller, and easier to hide the print of the grip of an automatic than a revolver. Or, at least, is it easier for me to hide the print.

Weight: The P11 is far lighter. According to their website, the Rossi 462 weighs 26 ounces. The P11 is only 14 oz and only 20 oz loaded. To me, this is a big deal. I wouldn't even consider everyday carry with at 26 oz empty handgun. I need something lighter.

The P11 doesn't have a hammer that could snag on something when it is drawn. I wouldn't carry the 462 in my pocket for this reason, but I could carry the P11 in a pocket holster.

The P11, obviously, carries more ammo.

The P11 has a cult following at TheKTOG.org. If you don't like the trigger pull, you can learn how to shorten it and lighten it. Parts are cheap. There are lots of ways to customize the little gun.

The P11 can be finicky, but if you perform the famous KTOG fluff and buff, it should work fine. You also have avoid limp-wristing, a term that means firing the P11 without a firm grip. If held lightly, there won't be enough resistance to allow the slide to properly cycle. It shouldn't take more than a couple of magazines to figure it out. It's explained in detail at KTOG so I won't go into it here.

The P11 is about $100 cheaper, which could towards more practice ammo or getting the slide chromed or whatever. Personally, I wouldn't let $100 either way be a part of my carry decision. I don't carry the P11. It's a spare to toss in the truck. I carry a Kahr PM9 and a Kel Tec P3-AT.

Edited October 10, 2012 by jgradyc

[daddyo]

Rossi. Even though I have no experience with it, I would choose any revolver over a Kel Tec semi-auto.

[Mykltn]

Not to mention the Flash and Bang of a Snub Nose 357 will make even the meanest BG poop himself.

[mikegideon]

Not to mention the Flash and Bang of a Snub Nose 357 will make even the meanest BG poop himself.

You have a point there

[Guest etnsr9c]

I would go with the rossi because having owned several kel tec handguns I know that the reliability of them can be hit or miss and I dont like leaving my and my families safety to hit or miss reliability. And before people start going off on me about they have kel tec that run great, I dont doubt that but there are some that dont. If you do decide on the kel tec make sure you ring it out good before trusting your life to it.

[Jonnin]

Rossi.

I *know* already that I cannot pull the trigger on the kel-tec. I like kel-tec's innovation but I cannot deal with the triggers on their handguns.

I know that if the rossi DA pull is too much I can pull the hammer back. Slow, but at least it can be fired.

Not a compelling reason for people with strong hands, but you asked!

[MiddTennTaco]

I've never seen or held a Rossi 462, but I've owned two P11s and a Taurus 85 38 Special. I'd pick the P11 for the following reasons.

Size: The P11 is more concealable because it is thinner, smaller, and easier to hide the print of the grip of an automatic than a revolver. Or, at least, is it easier for me to hide the print.

Weight: The P11 is far lighter. According to their website, the Rossi 462 weighs 26 ounces. The P11 is only 14 oz and only 20 oz loaded. To me, this is a big deal. I wouldn't even consider everyday carry with at 26 oz empty handgun. I need something lighter.

The P11 doesn't have a hammer that could snag on something when it is drawn. I wouldn't carry the 462 in my pocket for this reason, but I could carry the P11 in a pocket holster.

The P11, obviously, carries more ammo.

The P11 has a cult following at TheKTOG.org. If you don't like the trigger pull, you can learn how to shorten it and lighten it. Parts are cheap. There are lots of ways to customize the little gun.

The P11 can be finicky, but if you perform the famous KTOG fluff and buff, it should work fine. You also have avoid limp-wristing, a term that means firing the P11 without a firm grip. If held lightly, there won't be enough resistance to allow the slide to properly cycle. It shouldn't take more than a couple of magazines to figure it out. It's explained in detail at KTOG so I won't go into it here.

The P11 is about $100 cheaper, which could towards more practice ammo or getting the slide chromed or whatever. Personally, I wouldn't let $100 either way be a part of my carry decision. I don't carry the P11. It's a spare to toss in the truck. I carry a Kahr PM9 and a Kel Tec P3-AT.

I was getting ready to type a book myself but you beat me to it. Nice job.

I'm surprised everyone is taking up for #1 Rossi and #2 a revolver, lol

[mikegideon]

I would go with the rossi because having owned several kel tec handguns I know that the reliability of them can be hit or miss and I dont like leaving my and my families safety to hit or miss reliability. And before people start going off on me about they have kel tec that run great, I dont doubt that but there are some that dont. If you do decide on the kel tec make sure you ring it out good before trusting your life to it.

I have read a bunch of keltec owners that have fixed their reliability issues with the fluff and buff procedure. If I owned one, that would be the first thing I would do. Keltecs are rough, but can be real reliable if you knock the rough off them. I wouldn't buy one of their pistols without committing to the polish job.

I have nothing against Rossi revolvers as a functioning gun (even though they're much sloppier than a smith and wesson), but don't like the lump they create when you carry them.

[MacGyver]

Sell them both and go for a S&W 642 or similar?

I want to like kel-tecs. They're innovative. The reliablilty just isn't there, though.

I like a good snub nose, but if it's going in my pocket, I'd just assume not have the hammer exposed.

[TMF]

I have a used, beat up P11. It shoots just fine. I've put a few hundred rounds down the pipe with no issues. I'd definitely take it over a revolver for carry. It's half the weight and twice the capacity. The bullets don't come out sideways or anything. If you can't hit a man sized target center mass from 10m it is not the fault of the pistol. Other than being cheap, rough and ugly, I can't think of a practical reason to take the revolver over the P11 for carry.

[Jonnin]

I want to like kel-tecs. They're innovative. The reliablilty just isn't there, though.

Try something bigger. The 2k seems to work well, for example, and my PLR 16 has been trouble free as well (though the mag that came with it was not stellar).

[jgradyc]

If you get a FTF with the P11 and the fluff and buff doesn't fix it, send it to Kel Tec and they'll fix it. As far as looks is concerned, you can sandpaper off all the sharp corners. The little gun looks a lot better with the sharp corners smoothed off. If you enjoy tinkering, the Kel Tec is super. I did a hammer modification, but went too far and had to replace the hammer. My cost for a new hammer... $9 with free shipping.

If tinkering sounds like fun, then the Kel Tec is a great choice. It can be as reliable as other semi-autos. If you just want a gun to carry, a revolver could be a better choice.

[Kevo]

My vote wold be for the Kel-Te.c P11. More versatile: easier and cheaper to shoot the same round you'll be carrying, can use 15 round factory S&W magazines and offbrand extended capacity, share magazines with your Ke-Tec Sub-2000 and last but not least, due to it's thinness and lighter weight you'll have more options as to how you actually carry it. Yes you will have to fluffNbuff, safely dryfire a thousand times, run a couple of value packs of FMJ, at least 50 of your carry load (my opinion) AND feel pride knowing there's a few Americans that have a job because of the decision that you made.

[Guest lilmule]

I would not pick either one but the flat semi auto is easier to conceal,I carry steel tad heavier also less recoil and less prone to frame crack issues.Llama 32 acp or pa 63 in 9x18 mak also a small person so cant hide large pistols easily and cant shoot plastic wonders more than once like my hands all to well.

Edited October 10, 2012 by lilmule

[graycrait]

TMF hit the nail on the head. Get the KT P11 for a SYA gun. Rossi is pimp cool but reliability and capacity beats the wheel gun.

However, after shooting and owning both I prefer either to a pipe and nail.

[TrickyNicky]

Haven't had any issues with keltecs, if I did I'd fluff'n buff them or send them back to KT. I'd go with the lighter one that's easier to conceal, holds more ammo and reloads faster. Wonder which one that is....

[tnhawk]

Sell them both and go for a S&W 642 or similar?

I want to like kel-tecs. They're innovative. The reliablilty just isn't there, though.

I like a good snub nose, but if it's going in my pocket, I'd just assume not have the hammer exposed.

My 442 with a pocket holster disappears in a jeans pocket, untill I need it.

[R_Bert]

Of the Kel-Tecs, I would also suggest that you consider the PF-9 or even the P3AT. Even smaller, and *much* smoother/lighter trigger (~5 lbs instead of 11).

The PF-9 is a bit rougher on the hands when firing, but a bit of sand paper to smooth out the grip works fine (I just left mine stock, as little as it is shot).

Both are excellent in concealment.

[dats82]

I wouls go with the Kel-Tec. The smaller size and increased capacity wins out in my book.

As far as the Rossi goes, I think you will find the wheel gun to be harder to conseal, heavier, and just generally more awkward to carry. Also, I've never understood the point of a snubby .357. I figure just carry a .38 +p. It seems like the short barrel neuters the potential of the .357.

[Guest Wildogre]

PF 11 I shoot left handed so revolvers are a bit problematic for me.

I also have a P3AT and a Sub2k and so far have had no issues with either.

[broox]

I vote for Kel-tec. I carry a pf9. Yes you have to do a little work sometimes with KT, but of the choices that is my opinion.

[JAB]

I have carried both. No contest. I'd go with the Rossi.

Not only have I carried both but I actually had both in my carry rotation during the same time period. I have also owned a Rossi 461 which is simply the blued version. The 462 wasn't 'mine' (belonged to my wife's late father and she kept it when we seperated - she used it to pass her HCP class.) I have since traded both the 461 and the P11 away but for different reasons. I'll tell you my reasons and maybe that will help clarify my opinion:

1. I found the P11 difficult to shoot with even 'combat accuracy'. The long, rather stiff trigger pull had a lot to do with that. Also, the P11 (actually both of them - I sent the first one back to the factory and ended up with a replacement) requires a sort of strange 'triangular' sight picture where you put the front sight between and slightly above the rear sights (at least that is how I had to shoot it and I've read others talking about shooting it the same way.) My P11 (both of them, in fact) worked fine with the factory 10 round mag but never wanted to work just right with the factory 12 round mag. There are S&W mags (forget which series) which will allow you to carry a 15 rounder but they make the grips much, much longer. The size of the P11 meant that it was not a pocket gun, for me. I don't carry IWB so that meant carrying it OWB with a cover garment.

I came to realize that with the same method of carry/concealment I could carry a Ruger P95 just about as well as I could carry the KT P11. I shoot the P95 a lot better plus it holds 15 rounds in a flush fit magazine and, being a typical Ruger, is built like the proverbial tank. I took my P11 to my favorite LGS, traded it for a used P95 and have not regretted it.

2. The only reason I traded the Rossi for a S&W 642 was that I had been carrying .38 +P in the Rossi and so decided that if I wasn't going to carry full on .357 ammo then I had might as well trade for a smaller/lighter revolver that I could pocket carry if I wanted to. Like the P11, for me the Rossi was not a pocket gun. It is more of a medium frame revolver and it has a six round cylinder. I disagree that it is harder to conceal than the P11 and I really don't get where people think the Rossi is 'bigger' than the P11. In fact, because of the short barrel, I found the Rossi easier to conceal. I carried it using the same, basic method as the P11 - OWB with a cover garment (carried it in a home-made holster.) Personally, I was a lot more accurate with the Rossi. In fact, I could usually keep all six from the Rossi on a B27 at 25 yards with about a medium rate of fire. I could sometimes keep all shots from the P11 on a B27 at that distance but usually not - and they were much more spread out than the Rossi when I did. I thought the trigger on the Rossi - while being a typical double-action trigger on a budget revolver- was still better (for me) than the trigger on the P11. In the interest of full disclosure, however, I should probably point out that I am more of a revolver guy, anyhow, and - all things being more or less equal - usually shoot revolvers better.

People want to talk capacity, speed of reloading and so on. Okay. I will say that it probably depends on where you live but, honestly, unless street gangs are the norm in your daily life what real life, non-tacticool dreamworld situation are you going to handle with 10 9mm rounds that you aren't going to handle just as effectively with 6 .357 (or .38 +P) rounds?

One caveat of which you should be aware is that it is much easier to find holsters to fit the P11 than the Rossi. I had a Fobus paddle that was made for a Taurus Millennium and it fit the P11 to a 'T' (Fobus makes holsters specifically for the P11 but the store was sold out of them and we found that the Millennium holster worked perfectly.) In the time I carried the 462 and then the 461, I never found an off the shelf holster to fit it. In fact, that is the reason I first got into making my own holsters - i couldn't see paying custom holster money for a holster to carry a gun that was less than $300 N.I.B.

To illustrate how well the Rossi shoots, IMO, I will say that I once shot the Rossi 462 side by side with a friend's Ruger SP101 using the same loads. Believe it or not, I liked the Rossi better just from a shooting standpoint. The Ruger spat gases and material out of the cylinder gap onto my hand while the Rossi did not. (The 461 never spat on me, either.) The Rossi had less felt recoil and I shot both with more or less equal accuracy. Of course, the Ruger would probably outlast the Rossi if being heavily shot and so on.

I would not mind owning another Rossi 461 or 462. In fact, it is likely that I will one day as I kind of miss the one I had. I think Academy sells a version with a three inch barrel and I've kind of had my eye on it but for carry the shorter barrel (like the one I had, before) would probably conceal easier. Chances are that I will never own another P11 and I don't miss it one bit. I really like my Kel Tec P3AT, too, (even though the S&W 642 has largely taken over pocket gun duty) so it isn't anything to do with a bias against Kel Tec. I will say, though, that I shoot even the diminutive P3AT better/more accurately than I ever shot the P11 because the trigger is different/better even though the sights are more rudimentary. I have heard that the trigger on a Kel Tec PF9 (which is slightly flatter/lighter than the P11 at the expense of less capacity) is more like the P3AT/P32 but I've never fired a PF9 so I wouldn't know. The P11 has 'second strike' capability while the P3AT/P32/PF9 do not.

I don't have any direct comparison pictures between my P11 and either of the Rossi revolvers. However, I do have some pics of my P3AT with the P11 and some of the P3AT with one of the Rossi revolvers so maybe those will be of some use to you:

The Rossi 462 with my P3AT (this was when my P3AT was still a first generation gun - I have since sent it back to the factory and Kel Tec built me a pretty much brand new second gen gun on my old, first gen frame but that doesn't really have any bearing, here, as it was still a first gen when the pics with the P11 were taken, as well.)

The P3AT is a good bit more thin than the P11 so, as you can see in this pic, the Rossi isn't exactly super-thick even at the cylinder:

and now the P3AT with the P11 (ignore the grips on the P3AT in this one - I was playing around with different things to change the grip size, etc. at the time and now only have a Hogue Handall, Jr. on it.)

I wish I had some thickness comparison pics to show you but, unfortunately, I do not. If it helps, I can tell you that according to the Kel Tec site, the P11 is one inch wide while the second gen P3AT is .77 of an inch wide. For some reason, I am thinking that the first gen P3AT (like the one in the pics) was ever so slightly thinner than the second gen but I won't swear to it. At any rate, the second gen P3AT is just over 3/4 the thickness of the P11 and there wasn't that much difference in the first gen P3AT thickness. Maybe that give some idea of thicknesses of the Rossi 642 and the P11 anyhow.

I hope that helps.

ETA: I also believe that the Rossi offers a greater range of ammo selection. It can handle anything from low-end .38 target loads up to full on .357 loads. I even fired some of the Buffalo Bore 180 grain hardcast loads from the Rossi to see how it would do and it did just fine (I bought those mostly for my four inch Taurus but wanted to try them in the Rossi.) On the other hand, while Kel Tec says that it is okay to fire some +P in the P11, they do not rate them for regular +P shooting. Kel Tec also does not recommend shooting steel or aluminum cased ammo in their guns (as an aside, Ruger says the P95 can fire any SAAMI cartridge including steel, +P or whatever - another reason I like it better than the P11.)

The only reason I stopped carrying .357 rounds in the Rossi was that I was concerned about the risk of over penetration in a public setting. It had absolutely nothing to do with the revolver's ability to handle .357. To be honest, the felt/perceived recoil from my S&W 642 firing .38 +P is much greater (sometimes to the point of being painful) than any full bore .357 round I ever fired from the Rossi (which never gave me any 'painful' recoil regardless of the load fired.)

Edited October 11, 2012 by JAB