Is this an illegal SBR?

[Guest Lester Weevils]

One could play the video from a location about 1:32 to jump to the item in question. Obviously ATF doesn't consider a factory Rossi Ranch Hand to be an SBR, but does it become an SBR when the fella attaches his home-made stock extender? If yer interested the fella has a couple of other short videos of him shooting the pistol with the stock extender. It really isn't a half-bad idea. Was just wondering if a fella might go to jail if he happened to use such a thing in presence of an ATF ossifer?

There is some discussion in the video comments. The fella expresses opinion is that this is legal because it isn't a permanent modification of the gun but I have the sneaking suspicion that he ain't a lawyer. Maybe the fella is correct but ATF interprets things so oddly.

Fer example if'n I put a vertical foregrip on a pistol, using a quick-detach mount so that the vertical foregrip can be instantly removed with a simple lever-flip, then the vertical foregrip wouldn't be a permanent modification but it might still be asking for trouble?

On the other hand, if this extender pad did happen to be legal, then by logic a similar extender pad on an AR pistol ought to be legal as well? Am guessing both would be asking for trouble, but curious about it. Thanks!

[MacGyver]

Without a letter from the ATF stating it's okay or a tax stamp, I'd say it's illegal as all get out.

[luvmyberetta]

Obviously ATF doesn't consider a factory Rossi Ranch Hand to be an SBR, but does it become an SBR when the fella attaches his home-made stock extender?

I don't think this would be an issue since it's more of a recoil pad than a stock extender. The ATF probably wouldn't look twice at it unless it was an obvious attempt to make the gun a lot longer. I've seen rubber shogun recoil pads as thick as the one he's using. You never know what you'll see next when it comes to the mind of a "good ole' boy".

As for the vertical foregrip...that's probably not such a good idea & I believe is illegal on a "pistol".

Edited October 9, 2012 by luvmyberetta

[Dolomite_supafly]

I would say it is illegal.

The original firearm is classified as a pistol and not designed to be shoulder fired. Once it has been modified to be shouler fired it no longer meets the definition of a pistol and does meet the definition for a rifle. And when it meets the definition for a rifle it MUST have a barrel of 16" or be registered as a SBR.

Dolomite

[RED333]

I would say it is illegal.

The original firearm is classified as a pistol and not designed to be shoulder fired. Once it has been modified to be shouler fired it no longer meets the definition of a pistol and does meet the definition for a rifle. And when it meets the definition for a rifle it MUST have a barrel of 16" or be registered as a SBR.

Dolomite

+1

That 16" thing is the factor here, ya cant change a firearm, no cheating, the BOSS will get ya.

Edited October 9, 2012 by RED333

[McAllyn]

IMO, soon as he put that thing up to his shoulder... it became a rifle.

AND, as soon as I hit Play on that video... I became a retard...

Mac

[Lumber_Jack]

IMO, soon as he put that thing up to his shoulder... it became a rifle.

AND, as soon as I hit Play on that video... I became a retard...

Mac

I understand he added an extension to the stock, but what about people that shoot AR pistols from shoulder using the buffer tube. There are thousands of videos with people doing that.

[Caster]

Well if ain't illegal, it should be. What a butcher job to what should've been a decent little lever rifle.

To each his own but I'll never understand people's fascination with making pistols out of things that aren't pistols. THat's gotta be one awkward bugger to shoot and no where near as accurate as a decent blackhawk and not even in the same ballpark as a full length lever rifle or carbine obviously.

Seems like the guy is playing with fire even if it is legal. Skirting close to the edge with the feds is a good way to get burned.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Caster

[Hershmeister]

The pad made it an SBR

AR pistols are ok since the buffer tube is part of the pistol.

And I also lost a few iq points watching that

[Guest nysos]

I would say illegal SBR as well.

[McAllyn]

PERSONALLY, I think AR pistols are simply rifles with no butt-pad, but they are legal due to a ruling somewhere (I can't quote the definition or ruling because I have never had a need to look it up). I believe if you add a butt-pad to the buffer tube, you've created a rifle. Doesn't affect me as I have no need or desire for an AR pistol. If I wanted an AR with a short barrel, I'd just jump through the hoops. To each his own.

But... the video seems to document someone trying to apply the AR pistol ruling to another weapon, wrongly in my opinion. The only way this could affect me personally is they drop the hammer on him and clear up that ruling with extreme prejudice. Again, a ruling that would not affect me in the least.

Mac

[Guest nysos]

PERSONALLY, I think AR pistols are simply rifles with no butt-pad, but they are legal due to a ruling somewhere (I can't quote the definition or ruling because I have never had a need to look it up). I believe if you add a butt-pad to the buffer tube, you've created a rifle. Doesn't affect me as I have no need or desire for an AR pistol. If I wanted an AR with a short barrel, I'd just jump through the hoops. To each his own.

But... the video seems to document someone trying to apply the AR pistol ruling to another weapon, wrongly in my opinion. The only way this could affect me personally is they drop the hammer on him and clear up that ruling with extreme prejudice. Again, a ruling that would not affect me in the least.

Mac

Improvised stocks (IE, buttpad to buffer tube, or back of that lever rifle) no different than a permanent stock in the eyes of the BATF. The reason you can do AR pistols is because the buffer tube is necessary to make the weapon function. To skirt the issue of a stock, they require it to be a buffer tube that does not allow a permanent stock to be attached to it.

[Lumber_Jack]

PERSONALLY, I think AR pistols are simply rifles with no butt-pad, but they are legal due to a ruling somewhere (I can't quote the definition or ruling because I have never had a need to look it up). I believe if you add a butt-pad to the buffer tube, you've created a rifle. Doesn't affect me as I have no need or desire for an AR pistol. If I wanted an AR with a short barrel, I'd just jump through the hoops. To each his own.

But... the video seems to document someone trying to apply the AR pistol ruling to another weapon, wrongly in my opinion. The only way this could affect me personally is they drop the hammer on him and clear up that ruling with extreme prejudice. Again, a ruling that would not affect me in the least.

Mac

Improvised stocks (IE, buttpad to buffer tube, or back of that lever rifle) no different than a permanent stock in the eyes of the BATF. The reason you can do AR pistols is because the buffer tube is necessary to make the weapon function. To skirt the issue of a stock, they require it to be a buffer tube that does not allow a permanent stock to be attached to it.

understood, I was mainly questioning the premise that "as soon as he put it to his shoulder it was a rifle". when if fact it was adding the butt pad that would make it a rifle

[Guest nysos]

understood, I was mainly questioning the premise that "as soon as he put it to his shoulder it was a rifle". when if fact it was adding the butt pad that would make it a rifle

Right, I see what you were getting at now.

[Hershmeister]

Correct - he may try to shoulder the pistol and perhaps with his inbred t-Rex arms it might work for him.

[McAllyn]

Correct - he may try to shoulder the pistol and perhaps with his inbred t-Rex arms it might work for him.

now THAT is funny!!!

Mac

[Troutburger]

1) He's a terrible shot. Would hate for anyone to see me shoot like that.

2) He has created a SBR and would require proper paperwork.

[gjohnsoniv]

Play stupid games and win a visit from the ATF.

Edited October 9, 2012 by gjohnsoniv

[strickj]

If adding a recoil pad to the "stock" makes it a rifle, what would it make it if the shooter was wearing a recoil pad?

[1gewehr]

ATF has ruled many times that the attachment (temporary or permanent) of a shoulder stock to a handgun makes it a Short-Barreled Rifle, and requires registration and payment of the $200 tax. There are some exceptions to this rule for Curio & Relic firearms like the Mauser Broomhandle, Luger, and early Browning High Powers with stock attachment lugs.

Adding his butt-pad makes the Rossi Mare's Leg into a firearm intended to be fired from the shoulder.

It's a silly law and a perfect example of why ignorant politicians should not write gun laws. But, it IS the law and this fellow has created a Short-Barreled Rifle.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

You never know what you'll see next when it comes to the mind of a "good ole' boy".

IMO, soon as he put that thing up to his shoulder... it became a rifle.

AND, as soon as I hit Play on that video... I became a retard...

And I also lost a few iq points watching that

Correct - he may try to shoulder the pistol and perhaps with his inbred t-Rex arms it might work for him.

If adding a recoil pad to the "stock" makes it a rifle, what would it make it if the shooter was wearing a recoil pad?

Adding his butt-pad makes the Rossi Mare's Leg into a firearm intended to be fired from the shoulder.

It's a silly law and a perfect example of why ignorant politicians should not write gun laws. But, it IS the law and this fellow has created a Short-Barreled Rifle.

Thanks all for the informative (and witty) ideas. The feller definitely am a good ole boy.

Was handling a Rossi Ranch Hand at the store so got curious and read/watched some videos about it. To find out how people shoot it and if it is a reliable decent little gun. Dunno it I'd get one. Maybe one could get a little more power/accuracy from a Ranch Hand than a pistol, for a home defense or truck gun, or short-range hunting. But due to the short magazine it only has capacity of 6 + 1, and wouldn't offer any more ammo capacity than a revolver, though one could reload on the fly with the thing. Not have to stop and do a cylinder dump as with a revolver.

Surely they wouldn't put you in jail just for shoulder-firing the thang, as long as you don't use a butt-pad? Handling the pistol at the store, appeared awkward to shoot it one-handed or two-handed from a pistol stance. Maybe practice would make perfect but tis doubtful. Watching videos of folks shooting it reinforced that impression. Shooting one handed, or two-handed AR-pistol-style (with the weak hand on foregrip), looks awkward and potentially wobbly to aim. Unless the weak hand on the fore stock is big and strong enough to hold the thing real firm, doubtful the average guy could hold that lever pistol on-target and work the lever for a followup shot. Most videos of folks shooting "pistol style" were lowering the weapon and completely losing target-aim to get enough "leverage" to work the lever, so the pistol might have to be raised and re-aimed on every shot. Unless the fella was pretty strong.

However it did seem ergonomic/practical to shoot from the hip, old TV Rifleman show style. Though a fella would have to be talented indeed to hit much of anything shooting from the hip. Some talented folks shoot good thataway. Likely about the same as cowboy style pistol experts who fire as soon as the pistol clears the holster and points forward.

Maybe I have stubby T-Rex arms as well, or maybe in practice shouldering the pistol wouldn't work so good. But test-shouldering it at the store, it didn't feel completely ridiculous. The pull of that short little stock is not a whole bunch shorter than a youth-sized carbine, and it isn't radically shorter than the pull on a collapsed-stock AR carbine or my MSAR bullpup. Just sayin, the previously-mentioned conventional rifles have rather short stocks as well. Not quite so short, but pretty dern short.

Blue-sky speculating-- Ruger wouldn't have market motivation to try, but if they followed Rossi's formula for turning a Mini-14 ranch rifle into a pistol-- Shorter barrel and stock "about as long" as Rossi's lever-pistol. Somehow am guessing that ATF would refuse to authorize ruger to call such a gadget a pistol, even if it had the same stock dimensions as the ranch hand. However, if there was a "ranch hand" version of a Mini-14, betcha a fella could figure out how to shoulder-fire it pretty well?

[Clod Stomper]

An alternate way to shoot an AR-style pistol is to use a one or two point sling and pull forward to stabilize it. That may work just as well with the Rossi as well as making it possible to work the lever without lowering it and losing sight picture. I don't know, but it may be worth a try.

Will

Edited October 13, 2012 by Clod Stomper

[jtmaze]

I see no practical use for weapons of this sort just fun to play with. As for truck gun I have a 1911 and 20" youth shotgun for that. Are they cool to have but practical no.

JTM

Sent from my iPhone

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Thanks Will

Yep two handed on the pistol grip pushing forward against a single point sling is how I've had best accuracy with plr-16, though am not an accurate shooter.

I probably won't buy a ranch hand but that may well be a possible good stance with the ranch hand.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I have been looking for a cheap Mare's Leg to make a modern version of the Volcanic pistol. I think it would make it much easier to use and definitely easier to shoot.

Dolomite