Self Defense against Un-Armed Perps (Pepper Spray Carry with Handgun)

[TexasAggie]

Group,

What's your opinion regarding carry of pepper spray for un-armed threats (when handgun use would not match the threat)? I've recently obtained my HCP and was considering other self defense tools that I might need to carry with my handgun (I believe that a good tactical flashlight is needed).

Using pepper spray has some advantages when the assailant may be moving toward you in a threatening manner but has not produced a weapon. From a liability perspective, I also think that escalating your response and matching the threat is better than drawing your handgun in this circumstance. Regarding downsides, I understand that pepper spray has limitations during windy conditions, some perps may be immune, and that there's a short delay before it fully takes effect. Also, there's a risk that you could be affected (get some of the chemicals on you) in a H2H situation.

I've looked at Kimber's Pepperblast II product and it appears to be a good solution to protect against unarmed assaults. Hits at 90 mph (wind doesn't affect), has some really nasty chemicals (perp is disabled for 30 minutes), and it's designed like a small handgun (including sights).

This may have been discussed elsewhere in the forum, but I didn't see a good discussion of the pros and cons. Appreciate any feedback.

Mike

Edited October 8, 2012 by mcrichar

[DaveTN]

I’ve maced many people and all I can say is that I’ve seen big tough guys fall down and cry and I’ve seen guys that acted like we were spraying water on them. Have a backup plan that you can deploy fast.

If someone is attacking me in an unprovoked attack, I’ll use the threat of deadly force and then deadly force if necessary. I’ve carried mace for dogs.

I have absolutely no experience with the Kimber stuff or anything that’s available to the public.

[Guest nysos]

As stated above by DaveTN, what happens if the pepper spray does nothing then? How quick can you transition to your handgun?

My opinion of it is, draw and keep at a low ready. If the person keeps coming at you after seeing your handgun, you have a reason to fear for your life. I suggest pepper spray to people that aren't comfortable carrying a handgun, so that they at least have something. I personally don't carry pepper spray, mainly for the fact that it affects people different.

Given the wrong environment pepper spray could be very dangerous towards yourself (outdoors, wend blowing from behind perp towards you). Soon as you mace them you could get a face full as well.

Just my .02 on it.

[Makiaveli]

As stated above by DaveTN, what happens if the pepper spray does nothing then? How quick can you transition to your handgun?

My opinion of it is, draw and keep at a low ready. If the person keeps coming at you after seeing your handgun, you have a reason to fear for your life. I suggest pepper spray to people that aren't comfortable carrying a handgun, so that they at least have something. I personally don't carry pepper spray, mainly for the fact that it affects people different.

Given the wrong environment pepper spray could be very dangerous towards yourself (outdoors, wend blowing from behind perp towards you). Soon as you mace them you could get a face full as well.

Just my .02 on it.

Isn't the maximum range of pepper spray really close to the distance (21'?) that a person on foot can cover during the time you are pulling your gun?

Add in if you shoot a bad guy, you run the risk of people saying why didn't you try the pepper spray first?

In other words, it sounds like a great idea on paper....

[Guest nysos]

Isn't the maximum range of pepper spray really close to the distance (21'?) that a person on foot can cover during the time you are pulling your gun?

Add in if you shoot a bad guy, you run the risk of people saying why didn't you try the pepper spray first?

In other words, it sounds like a great idea on paper....

Yep, that is why I don't bother carrying it. If I draw my gun, something is going down fast and serious and I am scared ####less. Just because someone is unarmed doesn't mean that they can't kill you with their bare hands, or they may have something concealed. I am not a big guy, and if some 350lb body builder comes at me you better believe I am scared for my life.

[Caster]

Even a quote "unarmed" attacker can easily kill. If an imminent threat is there and I'm in fear of my life or the life of my wife, I could care less about less lethal methods.

I figure if he don't back off quickly when it comes out of the holster, he's intent on killing me and that's what I'll tell the judge.

[Caster]

Ha, Nysos beat me to it.

[Guest nysos]

Ha, Nysos beat me to it.

Great minds think alike sir!

But to reinforce the fact, me drawing = the less lethal method.

If he keeps coming, the less lethal method then becomes a possible lethal method.

Edited October 8, 2012 by nysos

[EastHipster]

You aren't a Police Officer.

They have the options of Baton, Spray, Taser for CONTROL and not defense.

[Guest TNBrat]

My mother & I were mugged many years ago. Coming out of the mall on New Years day, we had just put my daughter in her car seat & was putting stroller in trunk. Two guys walked toward us & thinking they wanted to just pass by we moved out of the way. They got close & split up. We were both sprayed… my mother went right down & they cut her with a knife. I didn't even notice I was sprayed. I got loud & combative & the guys took off… my dumb butt, even chased them. When the adrenalin wore off I felt it but by then the whole affair was over.

My point is just basically agreeing with above… It affects people differently. Even the really good stuff.

Having worked for the TN Dept of Corrections, I noticed the same thing. There's no carrying in the pods so we relied on pepper spray & that didn't always get the job done.

And lastly, as for dogs…My last job was Asst. Director of the Gibson County Humane Society & TN S.P.C.A. I have never used it in the field during an investigation but I had to use it when 2 of our biggest pitts started fighting. It didn't even phase them. When dogs are in "that mode" it's practically impossible to stop them without using physical force…Long story short, had to get a Tetanus shot.

[Major Kong]

I see no need to carry mace for self defense. If I wanted to do that I wouldn't have gone to the trouble of getting a handgun carry permit.

What about an unarmed idiot on bath salts? There's a good chance that pepper spray isn't going to affect them at all. By the time I realize that he's eaten half of my face off.

Seriously though, there are so many permutations of bad guys that you'd have to wear a Batman style utility belt and have omnipotent judgement to carry all of the crap you'd need to proportionally deal with each type of threat.

[TexasAggie]

Thanks Guys.

I tend to agree with your comments. I've thought about a self defense situation when pepper spray could be used effectively and it seems beyond a range of several yards (with a shot to the perp's face). Anything closer and I believe that you could incapacitate yourself and possibly be disarmed. It also could make the perp more violent and the attack would be worse. Although TN is a "stand your ground" state, I would like to think there might be opportunities to retreat within distances where pepper spray is effective. If not, then presentation (and possible use) of the handgun would be in order.

I've decided to take a Handgun Self Defense class (as a follow-up to my HCP) so that I get more training.

[Oh Shoot]

I'm fairly large guy and likely in better shape than average for my age, but nonetheless now geezer enough to assume that anyone willing to go fisticuffs with me is likely to cause serious bodily injury at the least. I ain't risking a beat down, and having an HCP means I don't have to take one.

"God made us, Sam Colt made us all equal".

- OS

[Garufa]

I'm fairly large guy and likely in better shape than average for my age, but nonetheless now geezer enough to assume that anyone willing to go fisticuffs with me is likely to cause serious bodily injury at the least. I ain't risking a beat down, and having an HCP means I don't have to take one.

"God made us, Sam Colt made us all equal".

- OS

But don't you have at least 8 blades on your person at any given time?

[Oh Shoot]

But don't you have at least 8 blades on your person at any given time?

They're backups. Hopefully won't have to get in close enough to need them!

- OS

[Guest sL1k]

What about an unarmed idiot on bath salts? There's a good chance that pepper spray isn't going to affect them at all. By the time I realize that he's eaten half of my face off.

i wonder if the pepper spray would be like seasoning to them?

Im with everyone else drawing is the deterrent.

[Jesse]

Just seen a video of a road rage drive getting out of his car to confront another guy. The other guy sprayed him with pepper spray. The road rage guy instanly turned around and got in his car. He didnt drive off cause he was prob crying. I bet he also locked his doors. He didnt want none then.

[Guest AmericanWorkMule]

Was it this one?

Just seen a video of a road rage drive getting out of his car to confront another guy. The other guy sprayed him with pepper spray. The road rage guy instanly turned around and got in his car. He didnt drive off cause he was prob crying. I bet he also locked his doors. He didnt want none then.

[gjohnsoniv]

Not sure if pepper spray would be the best thing to carry unless you can't carry your handgun. You might also want to look at something like a monkey's fist.

[TrickyNicky]

^+1. I carry a kubaton pretty much everywhere. Aside from having a handy weapon easily on hand it makes a great keychain. Been thinking about a monkey fist instead but not sure it would suit me better.

[BryanP]

If you're in a place where you can't carry (oh, like where I work), then pepper spray is better than nothing and can be quite effective.

It's true that individual reaction to pepper spray follows a pretty standard bell curve. Most people are lumped right in the middle of the curve with the typical reaction of being immediately disabled. Some people are more susceptible, with some on that side being so susceptible that exposure can put them in the hospital. Then there's the small number at the other end of the bell curve who are resistant to it's effects, with a very small number being completely immune to it's effects. I don't consider this a valid reason not to keep it as an option any more than stories of people shrugging off gunshots and continuing to attack will cause me to give up carrying a pistol.

For those of you who have never been exposed to pepper spray, you should try it some time. It's quite an experience.

[TexasAggie]

BryanP,

I agree with you. For those locations where you can't carry, it makes sense to have pepper spray at the ready. Combined with a tactical flashlight, it would seem to make a good combination since most attacks occur at night or under dim conditions. I'm still somewhat concerned about drawing a handgun under circumstances when a weapon hasn't been produced since it would put me at risk of an aggravated assault charge. It may be a risk that needs to be taken.

I'm still thinking this one through and I like having the option of using a non lethal option first if a weapon is not visible (then immediatey drawing the handgun if one is produced). For me, the goal would be to retreat from a possible deadly encounter. I know others may disagree but I appreciate their opinions.

Mike

Edited October 11, 2012 by mcrichar

[monkeylizard]

Although TN is a "stand your ground" state, I would like to think there might be opportunities to retreat within distances where pepper spray is effective.

Stand your ground just means you don't have to retreat before using force, but nothing says that you can't. It may very well be the best option depending on the situation

[Guest sventvkg]

Even a quote "unarmed" attacker can easily kill. If an imminent threat is there and I'm in fear of my life or the life of my wife, I could care less about less lethal methods.

I figure if he don't back off quickly when it comes out of the holster, he's intent on killing me and that's what I'll tell the judge.

It's unlikely a jury would convict you in TN on that basis.

[Jesse]

Yes workmule thats the video! Lol that guy didnt want to fight after being blinded.

And what is a monkey fist?