Open carry: a bad idea

[Guest kavik]

Rule #1 is dont get into fistfights.

Rule#2 is a fist can inflict death or severe bodily harm, so deadly force would be allowed to neutralize that threat.

If someone threatens me with his fist I'm pulling the gun. No point screwing around.

You need to become more educated in when and under what circumstances you can use deadly force before you end up in a bad situation and end up sued and in jail.

In regards to the original topic, IMHO, about 80% of those who "open carry" do it for the "cool factor" and to show off. They will of course, deny this. There are certain circumstances when it is appropriate and needed. Some will also claim it is for "furtherance of our rights", and I think some actually believe in a misguided way. However, if you really look at the positive/negative impact of open carry, I do not think it serves to "educate" the public or make them more inclined to agree with carry laws or gun owners. In fact, I believe it has a negative affect on our rights, and puts us as gun owners in a negative, rather than positive light.

Some will say "the hell with liberals and what they think," "its our right," "you are a sheeple for not standing up" and all that, but the fact is liberals/citizens vote and our rights CAN be negitavely impacted by federal, state and local laws changes which in a large part come about from citizen pressure.

DO you really think large gatherings of armed citizens at local resturaunts where the police have to be called is good for us? Or does it make it so next time we want to go to that resturant, there are now signs which prohibit open AND concealed carry? What was accomplished?

Same for those who say "there is no legal requirement to notify law enforcement" if you are carrying. You are right, there is not a legal one, butr a common sense one. Carrying without a permit IS A CRIME. If you haven't told an officer and he finds a gun, he is going to take the appropriate steps to be safe until he determines a crime has not taken place. So then don't whine about being cuffed, searched, etc when YOU put yourself in that situation.

I am not excusing incidents where police acted inappropriately or were wrong on the carry laws. I am saying just because you can do something doesn't mean it is a good idea.

[molonlabetn]

I see now.

We shouldn't exercise the rights we currently have 'permission' for, in fear that we might lose that permission...

What's the point of pushing for more 'permission' then, anyways, in terms of carry in restaurants, etc? I do agree that 'permission', by definition, can be abused... and often is. However, that does not make the exercise of that permission by personal preference simply because it is available (because they can), invalid.

...And, where does this loss of 'permission' due to public outcry seem to be happening? Are OC states losing or gaining ground? We can 'what if' all day, but when it comes down to it, the fears that rights will be lost, or OC'ers will be targeted by criminals moreso than CC'ers are not based on reality.

The mainstream gun banners are coming after us collectively no matter what method each of us individually employ to keep our weapons. So, by attempting to subdue all but those 'permissions' which you happen to cherish, you're playing right into their hands.

[canadienmike]

I see now.

We shouldn't exercise the rights we currently have 'permission' for, in fear that we might lose that permission...

What's the point of pushing for more 'permission' then, anyways, in terms of carry in restaurants, etc? I do agree that 'permission', by definition, can be abused... and often is. However, that does not make the exercise of that permission by personal preference simply because it is available (because they can), invalid.

...And, where does this loss of 'permission' due to public outcry seem to be happening? Are OC states losing or gaining ground? We can 'what if' all day, but when it comes down to it, the fears that rights will be lost, or OC'ers will be targeted by criminals moreso than CC'ers are not based on reality.

The mainstream gun banners are coming after us collectively no matter what method each of us individually employ to keep our weapons. So, by attempting to subdue all but those 'permissions' which you happen to cherish, you're playing right into their hands.

+1

Good response. There are many states where OC is considered normal and no one bats an eye. Hopefully TN will be like that someday. I don't normally OC but I can see valid arguments for both sides and how you choose to carry is your choice and I respect that. What really bugs me is all to CC people that make it their point to proclaim how stupid OC is and how anyone that OC's is a cowboy or is trying to look cool. That is the same argument that the anti-guns use for ALL people that carry. If you don't like OC then fine, don't do it, but don't attack people that make a different carry choice than you.

[Guest GUTTERbOY]

Do what you want. Making your firearm visible is going to attract attention. Some of it will be good, and some of it will be bad. Decide whether you're OK with the prospect of bad attention. Finally, realize that other folks will make different decisions, primarily due to the fact that they're not you. Now you can go on with your life.

*sigh*

[molonlabetn]

'Tolerance' has to start somewhere...

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

if our law makers thought that Open carry was such a bad idea. Then way did they not make it a concealed carry permit instead of a Hand gun carry permit. I say if you want to Open carry then do so. i choose to carry concealed. But now i agree with you if someone is open carrying and has one of those carry badges on then ya there dong it for the "cool factor" and to show off.

[molonlabetn]

I do see OC as a (socially) un-cool act, hence my own efforts to not appear flagrant or unkept if or when my firearm is exposed (and when it's not, too). I just like to be able to tuck in my shirt and not have to carry a mouse-gun, or some uncomfortable deep-concealment rig. Simply a matter of being flexible as the situation dictates what is practical...

But it's certainly not 'cool'... though I certainly agree that some people do it for just that (misguided) reason.

But hey, there's no law against being goofy.

[jughead]

i would suggest anyone open carrying to keep a copy of the AG opinion on his or her person at all times. i have been read the riot act by 2 state troopers and one county officer because of it. i now keep copies in all my vehicles and close at hand.

[skipsfirearms]

What would happen if you were OC or CCand you got into a fist fight with someone you didnt know. I was told in my saftey class you couldnt defend youself with your weapon unless it was a situation of serious bodily injury or a life or death situation and a fist fight wouldnt be considered one. Ive always wondered because if they got the upper hand and got your gun you would be screwed. I feel the situation in OC would be more justifed in using your weapon because he knew what he was getting into when he saw the weapon and engaged in the fight.

Personally I think the guy who gets into a fist fight with someone who has a pistol strapped to their side that is OC, he is a DUMBA$$....

[skipsfirearms]

In regards to the original topic, IMHO, about 80% of those who "open carry" do it for the "cool factor" and to show off. They will of course, deny this.

80%? Is that a verifiable number or just a guess? (I don't know what IMHO means. Have to look it up)

I looked it up, so ignore this question.

Some will also claim it is for "furtherance of our rights", and I think some actually believe in a misguided way.

If we fight for our rights and then choose not to exercise them; wouldn't that be misguided? I don't believe OC will "Further" our rights, but it is our right.

I find it very strange that OC people are taking so many attacks from other HCP people. I would understand it if the attackers did not carry, but since they do carry????????

Edited July 24, 2008 by skipsfirearms

[strickj]

I find it very strange that OC people are taking so many attacks from other HCP people. I would understand it if the attackers did not carry, but since they do carry????????

Its the same way whit people b***ing about our gun rights,and not being able to carry here or there,but turn around and hide the fact that they not only carry a gun but own guns! Saying its nobody's business what I have

Yup thats the reason carrying,and owning guns is not considered normal in todays society

[Guest Brian@GunDepot]

I totally have a solution.... Use a OWB holster for you main weapon, and a IWB/Pocket holster for your backup!

How does this solve the 'problem'? Simple. You CCW and HCP at the same time.... both sects are happy!

Discuss. :popcorn:

[molonlabetn]

My main weapon is always concealed in public, anyways...

[Guest tcampbell]

I didn't know they made a holster that small!!!

[skipsfirearms]

I didn't know they made a holster that small!!!:D

[Marswolf]

if our law makers thought that Open carry was such a bad idea. Then way did they not make it a concealed carry permit instead of a Hand gun carry permit.

They originally did. The reason it was changed was to keep some carry-hating sheriffs from arresting packers for inadvertently exposing their concealed handgun.

My concern is that OCing will result in a clampdown on carry policy. I think it is a very bad idea unless you are dressed like someone who should be OCing. Most people in civvies do look like cowboys when they OC. Many are, IMHO.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Personally I think the guy who gets into a fist fight with someone who has a pistol strapped to their side that is OC, he is a DUMBA$$....

There are people out there that are NOT afraid of your gun. I am not afraid of a gun. I am afraid of someone who gives off the vibe that they are competent and confident about using it. But those people give off that vibe whether they are visibly armed or not....

As far as getting into a fight with an armed person, POLICE , who are OBVIOUSLY visibly armed find them selves in fist fights everyday.Are the criminals dumbasses? Probably, but that does not make them any less dangerous... And the police TRAIN FOR IT. On the other hand very few people on the street that OC would have any chance after they get sucker punched.....

The gun is NOT a talisman it is just a tool. But as most people have never experienced how quickly a situation can go from bad to barely survivable they think the presence of the gun will solve all their problems. That is why police wear triple retention holsters because there is plenty of history of cops getting beat down and their guns being taken. Hence the security holsters. It at least makes it harder for the BG to get the gun away to use it on the cop.

My own personal feeling is that if you want to carry openly be my guest. You will draw all of the attention and no one will give me a second look. I am content to move about armed with no one being the wiser. I have no political axe to grind, no argument to win vs the police and no one to impress at the flea market.

But if you do choose to carry openly at least get some training in weapon retention because you might someday find yourself victimized BECAUSE you have a gun that someone who is not afraid of them wants to take from you. And your first clue that this is happening will probably be when their first punch lands.....

Edited July 25, 2008 by Cruel Hand Luke

[Guest Grout]

Well said and correct Luke,I doubt if it will change any minds but well said and true.Just in the last month or so in Ohio two Army deserters killed a man at a shooting range and took his guns.Criminals in prison practice disarming techniques.There are people out there who are not afraid of you or your open carried gun and would as soon kill you as blink an eye.

[Guest jdavis]

I carry concealed 99% of the time ,if i am at home or in my home town where everyone knows me i will sometimes carry open, my only issue with open carry would be the fact that if someone has bad intentions on his mind he will pick you out first to try to neutralize your weapon,for instance, a guy is going to rob a store and you are oppen carry if he starts shooting he will probably shoot you first now im no cowboy and i am not quick enough on the draw to get to my gun before he squeezes his trigger, but if he hadnt seen my gun then i would still have the element of surprize and may have been able to use my weapon to protect myself and others from this man instead of bleeding on the floor... i am in no way against open carry, but i got my permit and carry my gun every day for the protection of my family,me,and those that are drawn into a bad situation and cant defend themselves if everyone knows i have a gun when bad things happen i would then be making myself a target and not a solution in any way.

[cadillacdude1975]

blah@beating this dead horse.

[Guest c.a.s.]

Well said and correct Luke,I doubt if it will change any minds but well said and true.Just in the last month or so in Ohio two Army deserters killed a man at a shooting range and took his guns.Criminals in prison practice disarming techniques.There are people out there who are not afraid of you or your open carried gun and would as soon kill you as blink an eye.

Source?

Those who are not afraid would kill you regardless. "Surprise" means nothing when you are surprised first by a knife in the back or ribs, or if they indeed know these "disarming techniques" they have the capability to use them regardless of open or concealed carry. The largest percent of disarming techniques are used from presentation of the weapon, be it a knife or gun.

I myself have yet to see any cases which validate the fears of OC.

[DaveTN]

Source?

I myself have yet to see any cases which validate the fears of OC.

It’s called common sense. God gave it to you for a reason. And just like intelligence; some people got more than others.

How many stories do you need to validate the idea that if you walk around like a cowboy you are going to have a problem?

[GLOCKMEISTER]

It’s called common sense. God gave it to you for a reason. And just like intelligence; some people got more than others.

How many stories do you need to validate the idea that if you walk around like a cowboy you are going to have a problem?

dude, look at his profile, he's just 16... a few years ago he was strapped playing cowboys and indians and Marshal Dillon!

[Fallguy]

Source?

Those who are not afraid would kill you regardless. "Surprise" means nothing when you are surprised first by a knife in the back or ribs, or if they indeed know these "disarming techniques" they have the capability to use them regardless of open or concealed carry. The largest percent of disarming techniques are used from presentation of the weapon, be it a knife or gun.

I myself have yet to see any cases which validate the fears of OC.

It’s called common sense. God gave it to you for a reason. And just like intelligence; some people got more than others.

How many stories do you need to validate the idea that if you walk around like a cowboy you are going to have a problem?

Guess debating someone's common sense is easier than addressing their statement directly.

Say.....how many stories do you need of people OCing with no problems at all before you don't consider it acting like a cowboy?

So far I have read MANY more incidents or rather non-incidents by those who open carry than I have problems with open carry.

[DaveTN]

Guess debating someone's common sense is easier than addressing their statement directly.

I wasn’t debating his common sense; I directly addressing his statement by stating that open carry is a common sense issue. I know that he is young and I assume that he is trying to decide if it is a good idea or not.