Open carry: a bad idea

[Guest HunterH]

Time for me to start my first debate. I am at a loss why anyone would want to carry open who has a HCP for self defense. There is absolutly no benefit and lots of problems with open carry IMO. There is no question that surpise is one of the most formitable advatages that can be had in warfare or person to person level tactics. Why would you ever willingly give up such an important advantage?? You are also putting yourself at a MUCH greater risk of someone using your weapon on you.

In addition to these important factors that may determine the outcome of a life or death encounter, I would argue that open carry creates additional problems that are just not needed or helpful to yourself or the pro-gun community at large.

From experience, I can tell you that exposing a firearm to a none gun person can be like throwing a snake at them. Some don't care, to be sure, but it is bound to cause an adverse reaction to many people who will then be less likely to support pro gun legistlation. Concealed carry works because we do not cause a disruption to society either via reckless use of firearms or via causing unrest to the braoder public due to unwanted exposure to firearms. Like it or not, most people are intimidated by people with firearms. Exposing more people to open carry is liekly to increase this feeling in the general public and will ultimately work against us in teh form of antigun laws.

So I say again, open carry is a bad idea for both the person who carries and the gun community at large. I am excited to hear the view points of you all and thanks for reading this.

[TripleDigitRide]

I think I agree 100%

Because I see no reason, other than the "I can" factor, I would presume that a large percentage of people who OC want to gain the attention of others. In a nutshell, it's negative attention seeking, IMHO.

[The Rabbi]

[Guest Boomhower]

I'll second that, :popcorn:

[Mike.357]

You are also putting yourself at a MUCH greater risk of someone using your weapon on you

I love this one being bandied about. Cite some facts or even word of mouth story where this happened.

Personally I think there is a time and a place for everything. I am not particularly worried if someone sees I have a pistol. I keep it covered for the most part. But I do not believe it makes me a target or it will be taken from me.

All of that reminds me of anti's saying there will be blood in the streets or shootouts in bars etc... And of course none of that is true either.

[Guest Mugster]

I don't even know why this gets debated.

I probably wouldn't carry open into a mall...but then i don't go to malls anyway. Lots of dumbass in a mall.

[memphismason]

I carry open when I want and I carry concealed when I want. My reasons are mine, and they need not to be debated.

Search yourself and you will find inner peace, grasshopper.

[Guest canynracer]

It has its places....but as a rule, I carry concealed unless I am at one of those places....

I understand that you want to start your first debate, unfortunatley, this is a debate that we have all done.

Now, if you have some facts to back up your statements, well now we are talking.

Otherwise, as long as you have a HCP badge when you open carry your Glock, while you walk your pitbull off the leash, into a place where it is not posted correctly so you can make a point to the proprietor of said business that they are wrong and you are right....I see nothing wrong with it.

and Rabbi, I see your .....and raise you :popcorn:

[The Rabbi]

If that Glock doesn't have an Ashley Big Dot on it you might as well just lie down in the gutter and die.

[bteague2]

You assume everyone will have a negative reaction to seeing someone carrying a gun. Not everyone is going to freak out, if they notice they'll stare but plenty of people will ask you about it. If you can't explain yourself and the applicable laws clearly you probably shouldn't carry, openly or concealed. Even if you are carrying concealed someone watching you long enough will notice, unless it's deep concealed or in a purse/backpack. I mostly conceal but around my apartment complex or just going to get some gas or something I'll open carry; but usually only when I'm in or around my truck, not in stores or large groups.

[TripleDigitRide]

Because I'm one of the people who see no reason to open carry, I'm wondering if anyone would like to share any reasons/situation as to why it is a good idea to open carry? I see some mention that they OC in "certian situations", but not sure if I've seen many specifics.

I understand if your at a location where you fully intend to be shooting your weapon (range, match/shoot, etc.), but other than that, I don't see it.

[Guest 70below]

I dislike the title of the thread.....I think open carry is a GREAT idea. Now....mind you, I most likely wouldn't carry open in this state, but there are times and places that I would, and it has nothing to do with a perceived threat but of convenience in more accepting areas. My main dislike for the title of the thread is open carry is a great IDEA, and its a wonderful priviledge, its just not a very practical one. One thing that it does eliminate and protect the carry permit holder from, is something called "brandishing". Many states with concealed carry laws do not allow a weapon to intentionally or accidently become visible to the public, its not a common thing when you're careful, but sometimes things happen, and if they "happen" at an inopportune time then you would have trouble.

[Guest canynracer]

Because I'm one of the people who see no reason to open carry, I'm wondering if anyone would like to share any reasons/situation as to why it is a good idea to open carry? I see some mention that they OC in "certian situations", but not sure if I've seen many specifics.

I understand if your at a location where you fully intend to be shooting your weapon (range, match/shoot, etc.), but other than that, I don't see it.

I got this from http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum6/7507.html

OPEN CARRY VS. CONCEALED CARRY

Revision 1.24

Written By: Garry E. Harvey

Contributing Editors: OpenCarry.org Members

The purpose of this essay is to examine the two competing points of view within the handgun carry community and consider each one for its merits, both good and bad, from a common sense and logical point of view.

INTRODUCTION

"AN ARMED SOCIETY IS A POLITE SOCIETY"

Weapons and firearms in particular have been personified by many in recent decades as being evil and able to impart that evil into anyone who chooses to wield the weapon. In the anti-gun community, the only ones who appear to be immune from the gun's evil are those acting under the authority of government. It has been engrained into the minds of millions that ordinary citizens cannot and should not be trusted with the ability to use firearms for protection much less carry them into the public. Anyone who advocates such action is labeled evil, dangerous, or a vigilante. This line of thinking appears to be slowing eroding away as evidenced by the fall of the once prominent and powerful anti-gun lobby. The number of people choosing to carry a weapon for self protection has been growing steadily since the first laws were enacted. The cry of anarchy and blood running in the streets by the anti-gun lobby has proven false. As this has become more and more apparent, no thinks to the main stream media, the average citizen is beginning to change their minds over the issue. Criminals in an armed society know that their actions may garner them instant peril of death should they choose the wrong victim. That old saying still proves to be as true as it ever was, "An armed society is a polite society."

Carrying a pistol has been a part of my daily routine for going on four years. During that time I've taken almost every opportunity to speak with people from each end of the spectrum regarding the issue. Before I ever received my permit I remember part of a conversation I had with a party advocate for the Al Gore campaign in early 2000. Among the issues I posed to her during our conversation was that of Mr. Gore's support of gun control measures. She scoffed at me and snobbishly remarked that we didn't live in the Wild West. At the time I was not as well versed in the issue as I am now and really had no response although with her status I would have had more luck convincing a fence post otherwise. Over the next seven years I made it a point to broach the topic every chance I had with whomever I thought might have an interesting opinion on the matter. I researched the writing of the founding fathers and their predecessors with fervor. I studied the history of gun-control in America from the civil war forward, the rise of anti-gun organizations and those pro-gun organizations who rose in opposition to defend the Constitution. Having made my decision as to which side I was on I was surprised at the sometimes hateful opposition to carrying a firearm openly by members of the pro-gun rights community. It is for this reason I have undertaken to write this for everyone within that community. Before I delve into specifics let me state firstly that how one chooses to carry their weapon is their own choice and should not be subjected to harassment from others who disagree with that choice. My purpose is not to hold one method above the other but rather detail the benefits of both and leave it to the reader to decide for his or herself which they prefer.

CONCEALED CARRY

THE ELEMENT OF SURPRISE

The most prominent reason given by proponents of carrying concealed is the element of surprise. There are many hypothetical situations which have been posed to prove this point but they all boil down to the CRIMINAL not being aware of the ARMED CITIZEN as anymore of a threat than the UNARMED CITIZEN. The result is that the ARMED CITIZEN may reserve the option to use deadly force until the situation is favorable or not, should the threat cease.

What are the negatives associated with this logic and why is it not perfect in all situations? Well, one must first assume they will not be the sole primary target but rather a third party or in a group setting. The element of surprise is quickly rendered null once you are at knife or gunpoint with nothing to distract your attacker. Assuming the attacker becomes distracted sufficiently enough to attempt a weapon draw the victim must consider the risk and added time needed to draw from a concealed location. If all factors are not in the victim’s favor then the attacker is likely to win as his weapon was already in the ready position.

Another reason given for favoring concealed carry is the fear or perceived risk of the weapon being taken by the CRIMINAL. In one of two versions the CRIMINAL takes the weapon after it has been drawn from the holster and pointed at him. This is commonly shown in movies where the CRIMINAL takes the gun as the ARMED CITIZEN is too afraid to shoot. Unless the attacker is suicidal or the firearm is incapable of firing for some reason, expect to see this situation stay in the movies. The second of the two concerns the CRIMINAL successfully taking the weapon from the holster before the ARMED CITIZEN can react. This has happened to police officers and so it could happen to the ARMED CITIZEN as well but consider this following difference. In all but a minority of cases, the CRIMINAL took the officer's weapon once being confronted by the officer or while being placed under arrest. The act was one of desperation as the reward of escape outweighed the risk of taking the weapon from the officer. Assuming the weapon is properly holstered in a professional manner, the ARMED CITIZEN would only pose a threat to the CRIMINAL within a self-defense situation; the risk to the CRIMINAL would be overwhelming in attempting to steal the weapon as this act would trigger the self defense reaction from the ARMED CITIZEN.

Another less logical reason for not carrying openly is that one does not want to appear to be "looking for trouble." This line of thought seems to have evolved from the anti-gun accusation that everyone who carries a weapon is looking for a fight. The illogical hypothetical given for example tends to go as follows. The CRIMINAL sees the ARMED CITIZEN carrying a weapon and for no logical reason chooses to confront the ARMED CITIZEN and instigate a fight which inevitably ends with the CRIMINAL winning. Upon close scrutiny the reason and the hypothetical posed do not match up. First, why would the CRIMINAL want to fight an armed opponent for no reason? The CRIMINAL would have to lack any kind of judgment, have no fear of death and believe he is the fastest shooter on earth, not to mention invincible to bullets. Finally, how exactly is the ARMED CITIZEN the one "looking for trouble" when the CRIMINAL prompted the confrontation? Was it not the CRIMINAL "looking for trouble" by targeting the ARMED CITIZEN and pushing him into a self defense situation? This line of thinking is similar to accusing a rape victim of wanting to be raped because she was supposedly dressed provocatively.

Although there are other reasons I've been given for carrying concealed, the ones discussed have been some of the most prevalent; of the three only two hold some historical basis for concern but the last one falls apart upon a logical evaluation. The real reason for concealment has less to do with a tactical advantage, I think, and more to do with a social advantage. If the ARMED CITIZEN thinks he would be better served in a temporary social environment to have his weapon concealed then by all means do so. An example might be that you're shopping at a local mall owned and operated by big city politically correct hacks that are obviously anti-gun. If you know they'll ask you to leave their property should they become aware of you exercising your rights, it would be understandable to conceal it from their view; that is if you have to shop there. Maybe you're going to church and you don't want to draw attention from the preacher and his sermon. Bottom line, you should conceal when you think it is reasonable and serves a nobler purpose, not because someone pressured you.

THE CASE FOR OPEN CARRY

BEWARE OF DOG/GUN

A sign, be it text, picture, or symbol, is something visual which communicates a clear message to the observer. The observer can choose to disregard the sign but nonetheless they are forced to consider the message before proceeding. Examples of signs conveying an important message would be "BEWARE OF DOG", "NO SMOKING", "EMERGENCY EXIT", or the more ominous "DEADLY FORCE AUTHORIZED". Each sign aids the observer in any potential decision making. Of course, the observer may choose to ignore the warning but this choice will be made based on whether the potential reward outweighs the risk.

The case for open carry is simple. I would submit that in much the same way that a sign works, when the ARMED CITIZEN carries his weapon in the open it communicates a clear message to any observer. To an observer who has no intention of causing harm or using illegal force the sign should be meaningless. However, when the CRIMINAL observes this same sign he must reconsider whether the potential reward outweighs the risk. Where the risk was simply being caught or having to physically overpower the UNARMED CITIZEN it now suddenly rises to potentially enduring great pain and death when confronting the ARMED CITIZEN. Do insane or even desperate CRIMINALS exist who would disregard such an obvious sign and follow through with an attack? As with any possibility the answer is YES but even though they exist their actions do not support the opposing view that open carry should be avoided. They can still be potentially stopped by the ARMED CITIZEN once he becomes aware of the CRIMINALS intent to present a lethal threat.

With regard to the element of surprise discussed earlier, open carry actually supersedes the need for surprise. If carrying openly causes the CRIMINAL to avoid you and those around you as his victims then the need for surprise is negated. Your display of an ability to employ deadly force has avoided the confrontation before it even began, avoided the threat to your life and having to actually use your weapon. As the CRIMINAL moves on to easier prey you will likely never be aware it even happened.

CONCLUSION

THE REAL PROBLEM WITH OPEN CARRY

What is the real reason some shy from open carry? I believe it to be fear; the anxiety of having to confront someone hostile to their choice to carry a weapon for personal defense. As a pro-carry activist I welcome it but I can understand where a large section of armed citizens do not. Are there times when it is expedient to conceal your sidearm, definitely! Should you feel ashamed to carry it openly, NO! Hundreds of thousands of people have fought state after state to pass legislation to restore that right which was once only granted at the behest of local law enforcement.

Anti-gun hacks claim to have a right to "feel safe." This non-existent right has been twisted from the right to "be secure in one's person and effects" a right I exercise whenever I carry my weapon. The anti-gun crowd has the twisted perception that the weapon and not the criminal is the threat. They will and have called the police to harass the ARMED CITIZEN; I advise you show your permit and carry on. They may card you as many times as they wish as I long as you know you are legal nothing they do should stop you from carrying openly.

We, the pro-carry citizens, have to stop criticizing each other. We have to stop playing footsy with the politically correct crowd and stick together. Public opinion can be swayed in our favor if we as law abiding citizens can show through open carry that we are safe, caring individuals whose only want is to be able to defend our family and ourselves from needless victimization. Ben Franklin said it best when he explained that "the very fame of our strength and readiness would be a means of discouraging our enemies; for tis a wise and true saying that one sword often keeps the other in the scabbard. The way to secure peace is to be prepared for war. Those who are on the guard and appear ready to receive their adversaries are in much less danger of attack than the secure, the supine, and the negligent."

2007, Garry Harvey. This essay may be reproduced with the condition that it be kept in its entirety and cited accordingly.

[TripleDigitRide]

He makes some very good points, but for some reason I still see a lot of "because I can" in the article. Maybe it's the "out of sight, out of mind" aspect I prefer.

To each his/her own. Either way, carry on.

[Guest canynracer]

LOL...my thoughts exactly...I open carry while I am at my second job. I conceal everywhere else, but I dont freak if someone sees my gun print by accident...

[Guest Abominable_Hillbilly]

When I carry, I generally conceal. The only time I OC is when I'm in the woods.

That said...........if OC is lawful, I will fully support anyone who wishes to do so. I support anyone who engages in safe, lawful behavior with a gun.

[Guest jcoyle6]

murse/backpack

I take that rather personally:tough:

Anything to look less the gun toter any day.

Open Carry has its place, fortunately enough for me rare is the day I go to those places

[Magiccarpetrides]

I prefer concealed carry just because I would prefer everyone not know I have a firearm on me. There is a lot to be said for the element of surprise. For comforts sake though if im out in the woods or in my own home I will open carry. Im not a gunslinger/cowboy and do not have a particulary fast draw. I also have nothing to prove to anyone and would rather people not think im trying to be a "bada$$" so therefore CC is my preferred method.

[Guest betobeto]

Keeping our rights are first and formost. With that said I believe If one carries open, but does it as though they are quallified to, No one will think otherwise. But if they go around with a stupid grin on, wearing a wife beater and camo, thats a whole nother story.

[bteague2]

I take that rather personally:tough:

You would Metro.

Because I'm one of the people who see no reason to open carry, I'm wondering if anyone would like to share any reasons/situation as to why it is a good idea to open carry? I see some mention that they OC in "certian situations", but not sure if I've seen many specifics.

If I'm around my apartment and it's 83 degrees inside (air conditioning is for sissies) and I have to go get gas or check the mail I'm not going to put on another layer so some soccer mom doesn't freak out for the 5 seconds I'm not in my truck. I'm not going to go out of my way to be uncomfortable so somebody can remain clueless.

I don't open carry a lot but I don't think it is a bad thing. I wish it was acceptable to open carry so people would see that not just crooks and cops have guns... That being said, I do understand the benefit of blending in.

[Guest HunterH]

its a wonderful priviledge, its just not a very practical one. One thing that it does eliminate and protect the carry permit holder from, is something called "brandishing". Many states with concealed carry laws do not allow a weapon to intentionally or accidently become visible to the public, its not a common thing when you're careful, but sometimes things happen, and if they "happen" at an inopportune time then you would have trouble.

I could not agree with you more on these important points. I want to be clear, I am not in opposition of the open carry law. I feel much better knowing I am covered in case my weapon ever accidently comes into view. I used to have a permit in other states (TX and OK) that did not allow open carry and I was concerned about someone seeing my gun all the time.

I am about as pro gun as they come, I just offered my thoughts on how we can best serve our own interests and that of the greater gun community with the choice to carry concealed rather than open.

[Mark@Sea]

Open carry accomplishes 2 things - acclimatizes people to guns, and provides those who are curious about obtaining their own HCP, but needing information, with a point of contact (Hey, how d'ya get to carry a gun?) and with further incentive to go ahead and get their own.

At one point automobiles were a rare and somewhat frightening sight on the public thoroughfares. At one point, seeing a womans' ankles, or seeing her smoke, was unheard of. At one point, seeing a black man in the 'wrong part of town' was cause for alarm.

Use good judgement, don't be an ass, and "take not counsel of your fears".

[Guest HunterH]

in response to canynracer: Thank you for taking the time to post that article. I disagree with much of its content, but appreaciate the differing point of view for me to consider.

Rather than trying to break down point by point why I disagree with the author of that article, I will list a few main points.

1. a persons's continious situational awareness that is projected to others is the deterant not an open gun.

2. I don't buy the arguement against the element of surprise as it suggests that you are only going to use that advantage once you have been engaged at close range and surprised. The element of suprise is a formitable advange when used with situational awareness. If you get caught off guard, then you are screwed either way. People bring the level of intensity to a conflict that they sense from you. A reason self defense classes often tell you to relax your body before you attack in self defense as the attacker will often momemtarily let their guard down. If you have an open gun in a conflict or get caught in a robbery, you have almost certianly raised the stakes to a gun fight.

3. I fear that people who open carry may be emboldened to go to higher risk situations than they would otherwise. The right to carry does not mean we should now go down that high risk dark alley, but rather as armed citizens, we must go farther than others to avoid confrontation due to the responsibility that we have chose to take on.

4. I do not wish to passify those who feel they have a right to "feel safe". as we have just as much right to feel safe in our own way, including open carry. However, in most suburban and urban areas, the population is generally less knowageble and thus ignorant and afraid of guns. We are all ambasidors for each other as gun owners, and we need to help create positive public relations to advance our cause. Given the ignorance of much of the population, we need to be sensitive to how we accomplish this goal of positive PR. We have to expose people to guns on their terms more than our terms if we wish to accomplish our intented aim. Is that fair?? no it is not, but to be effective, I feel that is the appoach that will give us the ultimate victory of not facing any more D.C. vs. Heller and similar cases that determine our rights. The Heller case looks to go in our favor, but imagine if it did not.... makes the inconveince of having to be focused on how others perceive us more manageable. Remember, perception is reality in the eyes of the beholder and they will act and vote accordingly.

Again, thanks to all for the ideas and thoughts. I love to hear people wiht differing ideas as it makes me stronger in one of two ways:

1. I consider something that I had not before and refine my postion on the issue.

2. I am more convinced that ever that my original position was correct.

This forum has allowed me to do some of both!!

Edited June 2, 2008 by HunterH

[memphismason]

When I get out of the truck at the Gas Station, I pull my untucked shirt around my gun, so all the democrats can see.

I have had a guy walk towards me at a gas station , (he was a homeless fellow) as he was walking towards me he was picking his nails with a pocket knife. As he got close to me he said with out looking up, "You are going to give me a couple bucks so I can......" at that time he looked up and saw my gun and stopped talking, looked at it, then up at me, and said "Nevermind man".

That is one of the times that I open carry, and why.

[Marswolf]

Open carry accomplishes 2 things - acclimatizes people to guns, and provides those who are curious about obtaining their own HCP, but needing information, with a point of contact (Hey, how d'ya get to carry a gun?) and with further incentive to go ahead and get their own.

Sounds like that argument can fit Carry Permit badges too. Same effect.