Surplus powder. Long Range Match. Sanity check.

[vujade]

Hello seasoned reloaders.

I've been googling and reading threads all week and ready to step into unfamiliar (for me) territory. I'm rather fond of my face so if you don't mind, I'd like to share my process and ask for a sanity check to make sure I'm doing everything I can to be safe.

I'm reloading for 308. (3 different rifles but for now, this will be a Savage 10FP pre-accutrigger with a 20 inch barrel and a 10x scope). After working up a load using OWC and tweaking with OAL, I settled on a load I'm very happy with. (41.9 grains of Varget pushing 168 grains of Hornaday a or z max with Federal cases and CCI200 primers will give me 5 shot groups below 0.5 inches at 100.)

I know, I may have been better off just sticking to Varget but I'm cheap by nature and always looking for a deal. With that, I picked up a 5 pound jug of "Long Range Match" Surplus powder, which I'll call LRM powder. It's supposed to be equivalent to RL 15. If it doesn't work well enough for sub .5 groups in the Savage, it'll be demoted to be used in my hunting 308 (enjoys 44.1 grains of Varget) and/or a semi-auto Saiga (still working up a load for that).

But the main thing is 1) I'd like to keep all body parts safe and 2) keep the rifle intact. With that, this is my plan:

(I'm using a mix of new and once fired Hornady Brass by the way). Research shows that the max load for RL 15 will be 44.3, 45.1 or 43.6. It's supposed to be somewhat close to Varget in behavior.

1) Load up (1) load of 38 grains in Varget and the LRM. I'm trying to get my hands on a chronograph. This should be well below and at least give me a benchmark comparison with my known Varget. If it's way high, i'll proceed with even more caution and may tweak the following below. If it's about the same or lower, I can at least breathe a bit. If i don't get a chronograph, it'll at least give me an idea by recoil on how much hotter this will be. It's not a perfect test but it'll give me an idea.

2) I've made 3 of the following loads following the 10% rule using 43.6 as my high. I made loads in .5 increments starting with 39.5 to 43.5. I won't shoot those yet though but this will be what I used for the OWC test.

3) I'll make a round each. 38.5, 39, 42.2, 42.4, 42.6, etc. all the way to 44 in .2 grain increments.

At the range, after the first shot of 38.0, I'll then shoot the 39, start the first part of OWC test by going from 39 to 42, and then using my .2 increments until I see signs of over pressure (hard to extract, primers looked flattened/cratered, primers falling out from too much primer pocket expanding). I'll stop right when I get those signs and then go back to my OWC test up until I saw the signs of overpressure.

I normally like to load my stuff lighter anyway so I'm not looking for the fastest/hardest hitting weight charge, I just want it accurate without being dangerous. I'm open to any criticism to my thoughts/plan above. I'd rather suffer a blown ego than face. =)

I'll be sure to update and report back with pictures (of great groups, not a broken rifle) on my progress. Thanks in advance.

[vujade]

I know we really love pictures especially of rifles in threads so I'll share this for now until I can report back after my test.

Here is the rifle: (old pic, I've changed the scope since)

Here is one of my best groups with the Varget:

[peejman]

Get that chronograph. It's the best way to know for sure what you've got.

[R_Bert]

"With that, I picked up a 5 pound jug of "Long Range Match" Surplus powder, which I'll call LRM powder. It's supposed to be equivalent to RL 15"

So... any more details than this ?

What markings are actually on the jug?

Who did you get it from ?

Any verification on the RL-15 equivalence ?

I agree with above post. Chrono is essential, particularly in light of sparse details given to identify the powder.

[vujade]

Here is a pic of the stuff:

(the other side has a warning label; that's it)

The vendor said to use RL 15; it's supposed to be pulled from m118lr. But I know not to just use RL 15 data on assumption only. So thus my plan above.

Looks like I need to get my hands on a chrono first.

Edited November 1, 2012 by vujade

[R_Bert]

Here is a pic of the stuff:

(the other side has a warning label; that's it)

The vendor said to use RL 15; it's supposed to be pulled from m118lr. But I know not not just use RL 15 data. So thus my plan above.

Looks like I need to get my hands on a chrono first.

Interesting. I had not paid any attention to the "LRM" powder. Is it extruded ?

I wonder what the military designation is?

I see a number of vendors selling it. I wonder if it is the same as the RL-15 pulldown that Jeff Bartlett offers?

I have a can of RL-15, and while it is OK, I have not been highly impressed with it in my efforts (.308, .223, and .204 Ruger).

[dlm37015]

that look like my label . it has worked very good for me i have been out for some time just got it back in

[vujade]

Interesting. I had not paid any attention to the "LRM" powder. Is it extruded ?

I wonder what the military designation is?

I see a number of vendors selling it. I wonder if it is the same as the RL-15 pulldown that Jeff Bartlett offers?

I have a can of RL-15, and while it is OK, I have not been highly impressed with it in my efforts (.308, .223, and .204 Ruger).

I had to google/define what extruded is. yes. It looks like Varget (short sticks of powder).

Edited October 2, 2012 by vujade

[vujade]

It took me a while to finally get to the range. Here's my report. I had a few mishaps (see all the way below); overall, I'm more than impressed: I going to split this up into several posts.

The data I found alluded to this stuff being Reloader 15 and/or to use that data (and with the always added precaution (which I'll repeat here) to not use any published (especially on the internet) loads as your own and to always proceed with caution. Things will be different on your individual rifle.

I found this to be most beneficial:

http://www.6mmbr.cit...ierra308Win.pdf

I loaded 10 x 3 rounds. 39.5 all the way to 44.0 in .5 increments. 2.865 OAL seems to be working for me so I kept it there.

I also loaded 1 round at 38, 38.8 and 40.3 (38 just to make sure I had something light to 'test', 38.7 and 40.3 because I wanted to see how the velocity would compare with the RE 15 published data.) I also loaded corresponding loads in Varget for 38, 38.7 and 40.4. They should have corresponding velocities of 2500 and 2600 according to the table above. (I understood that with my shorter 20 inch barrel, I'm expecting a 20 fps loss per 1 inch (assuming the test data from the table above was a 24 inch barrel, that should be 80 fps loss).

I was using Hornady match brass. (with the Hornady primers). These may be '2nd rate' brass as there were some imperfections with the lot but I did weigh them and culled the ones that felt different (some of them had bullets that didn't go in as smooth).

I use Hornady Amax bullets, 168 grains. They are pulled but I weigh them and discard the ones that look too beat up.

The rifle is usually sub .50 with my Varget handloads; lately, they have all been .25 size 5 shot groups. It's a .5-.75 MOA rifle with Factory loads (FGMM or Hornady TAP).

Edited October 11, 2012 by vujade

[vujade]

I fired the 6 shots first to get a gauge of the speed and how close LRM is to RE15 and Varget. I then proceeded to do an OWC test from 39.5 grains to 44 carefully watching for signs of overpressure.

These are notes: (hard to read but I'll try to explain the important stuff below). I had a few mishaps detailed below * **.

Edited November 1, 2012 by vujade

[vujade]

These are the groups during the (rather incomplete) OWC test.

I only had 1 shot 'groups' for 39.5, 40 and 40.5. (explained as part of my 'mishap')

I only had 2 shots of 41.0 and 41.5 but good 3 shot groups for 42 and 42.5.

Good groups for 43 and 43.5 and only 2 shots at 44.

[vujade]

First observation - At first, I thought I was totally missing the central black targets. The 10x scope doesn't allow me to see much detail inside that black circle... so I didn't realize they were all in the black until a 'clear' was called and I walked up to the 100 yard line. I was surprised that they were all in there despite the big changes in grains of powder! When I was developing loads with the Varget, There were much more pronounced groups and shifts in POI.

The very few chrony data I had showed some pretty decent standard deviations (if you remove the blatantly wrong ones (those in the 3000s fps). 41.0 grains had 2518 and 2504 fps. 44.0 had 2799 and 2781 fps. This is no where near conclusive but it makes me very hopeful.

[vujade]

So, what do I do with the 10 rounds that 'spilled over' effectively ruining my experiment for the day **?

Well, I shot 1 round of one of my "1 hole Varget recipe". Sure enough it was right in the middle of a 100 yard square target. I then proceeded to fire the 10 rounds; same point of aim.

Here is the group: (mind you, these 10 rounds ranged from 39.5 grains to 44.0 grains!) I had the chrony working by then and recorded their velocities in the upper right corner of the data page (as well as the 3rd shot which caused the hole way low and right. If it was one of higher velocity, that would explain it but it was one of the ones that should have been right down the middle): Still, I'm impressed with the 11 shot group: (.70ish if you discount the rogue round, a little over an inch if you count it).

(I'll add that this was fast shooting, no time for the barrel to cool. No cleaning between shots. And I was a bit upset at myself for the mishap so I was just firing away.)

[vujade]

a few mishaps:

* A big mishap which will explain my 'incomplete' data in the notes/experiment. This is my first time using a Chrony so halfway through I got some REALLY strange numbers. All the numbers were showing well at first (2197 for 38 grains of LRM and 2189 for Varget, etc.) and then as I started to not get any readings on the chrony. After that, I started to get REALLY big numbers (3000+ fps on sets of rounds that I handloaded meticulously and didn't show any pressure signs/had light recoil). Towards the end, I fixed that issue and the chrony went back to reporting 'more correct' numbers.

** The other mishap was I was trying to get a case out of the box of handloaded rounds (all organized) and 10 of them fell out during the ordeal. Thus, I wasn't able to complete the 10 (3) shot groups. I ended up using them as outlined above... to make an 11 shot group.

Edited October 11, 2012 by vujade

[R_Bert]

beautiful work!

[vujade]

some more observations/possible next steps:

- I ran a dry patch about 3 times during the 40 or so rounds today. They weren't substantially dirtier than Varget; in fact, I was surprised that they came out pretty clean. When I heard of 'surplus powder', I assumed they would be dirtier.

- I'm going to make some rounds in the 42.5 to 43.5 range. This time go with .2 or .3 increments.

- I am impressed that about all of those rounds had the same or similar POI. Is it strange that there is a could be large changes in powder weight (and velocity) and yet the POI is similar? Looking at the data (even if they are only 2 shot groups for the ones that I didn't have a full 3), one can argue that the 'sweet spot' is from 42.0 to 44 grains!

- I understand that there may be large variances from lot to lot with surplus powder; I'm going to get familiar with the chrony and really get some good numbers. My plan is to document this and then whenever I get a new lot, make a few lighter rounds and compare the velocity and tweak the recipe accordingly.

- Varget still gave me better groups (now that I have a chrony, I'll be interested to check those loads' SD). But these .4 - .5 inch groups are still enough to make it a good day for me. I think they will be perfect for practice rounds (when I'm shooting the rifle non-benched), practicing off hand shooting with my hunting rig or making some rounds if I decide to reload for the Saiga again.

- If you are looking for some inexpensive powder that will still do the job; I'd take a look at this stuff and see if it works for you. Again, all safety precautions and warnings apply (twice and trice and then some).

Edited October 11, 2012 by vujade

[dlm37015]

i works great in 223 as well with heavy bullets and 5 pounds is only 75.00 i have 4000 pounds of 1 lot

[timthetoolman]

Great work! Funny..... I just commented on a post regarding "surplus varget" . Sounds like this may be close??

[dlm37015]

varget and reloader 15 are very close in burn rate but not the same

[vujade]

After some disappointments at the range today (see my posts regarding my chrony and a 1911), I did end on a good note.

I made some more loads with that Long Range Match surplus powder (41.9 to 43.4) and I was once again impressed:

Keep in mind that I am now hating my 1911 and at about the same time, just shot my chrony so I was a bit upset. I didn't wait between shots (it was cold today anyway so the barrel seemed fine). I did still do the 'round robin' method with shooting these groups.

I fired 3 with my favorite varget load and all 3 hit into a group .400 inches. (not my best but like i said, I was really upset). I then proceeded to fire the above groups.

Like my first test above, powder weight didn't seem to have a big difference. These groups rival those from my Varget loads.

I'm going to make more 42.2 loads now...

Edited October 28, 2012 by vujade