Laser sights are a distraction for some

[Guest dfsixstring]

Went to the range today - great time with my son.

There was a guy there with a tricked out Glock with a laser sight. He had the zombie target and his faithful wife/girlfriend in tow.

I was watching him while waiting my turn (through window) to enter. He was so focused on the red light that he was all over the target. For every shot he made, he was anticipating and pulling his shots all over the target.

It dawned on me that he's completely focused on that little red dot and leaving all of the true fundamentals of shooting on the sideline. Forget about breathing and sight picture.

Has anyone else seen this with novice shooters - or even seasoned folk with new toys?

Dfsixstring

SR9c

LCP

RST4S

[Caster]

I'm sure somebody will flame me for this but......

Lasers = mall ninja crap.

People should spend that money on ammo and just learn how to shoot.

[TNcitizen22]

I absolutely detest lasers. As far as I am concerned they are a crutch.

[RichardR]

Hard to say on this end what sort of experience the guy has with using laser sights, or what he was trying to achieve during his session but personally I think laser sights are great, especially when they are properly indexed with a weapon's existing iron sights.

They should never be used as a substitute for the basics though, unless it is an emergency situation and the weapon simply cannot be brought up and sighted down properly.

[gjohnsoniv]

Like everything they have their purpose. I don't see any problem with them if you're using in conjunction with your irons, but you shouldn't replace the basics with a laser.

[jtmaze]

To my understanding they are not designed for target practice. They are designed for quick responses. Draw. Place red dot. Squeeze. Every one I have ever read about says +-3inches at 30 feet. My iron sights are more accurate than that.

JTM

Sent from my iPhone

[RED333]

I have one I can put on my G22, works well for me, and I can hit without it as well.

You will not have time to put one on, turn it on and shot the bad guy, unless you call "time out" and

the buy guy plays fair and waits, we know the answer to that, dont we!

[scoutfsu]

They work great when used properly. I had some on my issued 92....for close in, night work...they're pretty useful. A problem I find is that people think they can use them in the day time. Even with a PEQ15, it wasn't useful for then.

They're a niche item.

[scoutfsu]

I have one I can put on my G22, works well for me, and I can hit without it as well.

You will not have time to put one on, turn it on and shot the bad guy, unless you call "time out" and

the buy guy plays fair and waits, we know the answer to that, dont we!

You generally don't turn them on per say. For most lasers (crimson trace comes to mind), it's a pressure switch in the grip. I've also tried M6X's and x400's.....just didn't do it for me. I'd rather have a WML and a good sight picture.

[RED333]

My point is you HAVE to hit that switch.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Lasers are probably great for some folks in some situations.

I made a "mistake" X2 with crimson trace red laser grips. Basically a mis-diagnosis of the problem, not really a fault of the laser grips. CT red laser grips are very well-made product as best I can tell.

If someone practices at an indoor range or at dusk/dawn/night, it probably works better with red lasers. Anything gets better with practice and the two red crimson trace lasergrips I had, were dim enough to be virtually invisible in daylight and I prefer to shoot outside in the daylight, so never got good time in practicing with the laser grips. They could easily be an assistance for self-defense shooting at night. Maybe lots better than night sights.

My misdiagnosis went like this-- Had many years ago selected two tiny guns for carry. A S&W 649 snub and a NAA Guardian .380 semiauto. I couldn't hit the broad side or a barn, point-blank range with either of those guns but can 99 percent hit an 8" plate at 10 or 15 yards with full-size guns with real sights. Because both the S&W and NAA had pitiful little nubs machined into the top of the gun as a sick excuse for sights, made the misdiagnosis that I couldn't shoot them accurately because I couldn't see the sights.

Well maybe if I was to practice a lot with laser sights indoors where I could see the dot, maybe practice would make perfect, but only being able to see the laser dot outdoors on overcast days or near nightfall, didn't get much practice in, and the accuracy was just as bad with the laser as with the near-nonexistent iron sights. The real problem was that I am too ham-fisted uncoordinated to operate 12 pound double action triggers attached to little bitty grips on itty bitty guns. Not being able to see the sights was a disadvantage, but the ruling disadvantage was being hopelessly unskilled with tiny guns and stiff triggers. So the laser grips didn't help at all. Might have marginally helped with lots of indoor practice being able to see the laser dot.

So my best solution was to get a carry gun with bigger better sights, lighter trigger and bigger grip surface. Specifically a Kahr 3.6" barrel P9 with XS big dot sights that you would have to be blind not to see.

I'd like to get a bright green laser for the PLR-16 sometime. A bright see-it-in-the-day-or-night green laser might turn the PLR-16 into the perfect shoot-from-the-hip zombie gun. But according to reviews, cheap green lasers suck for reliability and expensive green lasers cost as much as the gun, and all the green lasers eat batteries like candy. Eventually those problems will probably be solved, but I ain't paying $400+ for an experiment at the current state of tech. Get an $80 cheeze green laser, maybe it would work when needed and maybe not. And it is very rare to find green lasers that will start up reliably in cold weather, so if zombies happened to come around in the winter one would be SOL anyway.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[Sam1]

I thought about putting a laser on a couple of times now but backed out of it... They may be great for certain uses but when you're in a cqb shtf situation, how hard is it to track down a little red dot across the room? Heck you're good just to be able to see the front sight on your pistol when the adrenaline is pumping and stuff is going on.

[NRA]

No lasers will not turn you into Annie Oakley but one value of a laser seems to be over looked. The intimidation factor, laser dot on chest = eyes the size of saucers.

[Jonnin]

the guy next to me with a laser messes up my shooting as often as not --- for the same reasons, they wave it around, put the dot on my target, its constantly in motion and all over the place.

I have yet to see someone actually do well with a laser sight. They may be super powerful self defense tools but only if the shooter can use it effectively. When it looks like a 6 year old kid with a flashlight is behind the gun, its useless.

[Jesse]

I got a new laser for my ruger. Im taking it to the range to sight it in next week. But ill mostly be using the regualr gun sights at the range.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I thought about putting a laser on a couple of times now but backed out of it... They may be great for certain uses but when you're in a cqb shtf situation, how hard is it to track down a little red dot across the room? Heck you're good just to be able to see the front sight on your pistol when the adrenaline is pumping and stuff is going on.

Yep, thats why I was thinking green laser as strong as the law allows would be the trick, if one could buy a weapon grade green laser at a good price. In theory more practical perhaps for rifle than pistol, because they draw some juice and if the tiny disk batteries on a pistol can only run a green laser for a half hour or whatever, then even if the green laser is excellent otherwise, one would worry about the batteries going down when you need it?

I have an excellent green laser about the size of a 2-AA mini maglite that I mostly use for astronomy, aiming telescopes. At night it lights up the air and you see a bright green line extending a couple hundred feet into the sky. Red lasers (of reasonable power) don't do that trick.

My laser doesn't look friendly to adding a remote grip-switch or I'd mount it on a rifle for testing. Well, maybe ought to mount it sometime in some scope rings just to see how it works even if you have to push the little buttons on the laser for testing purposes. It is configured (intentionally) with a 5 minute timer. You have to be careful shining a laser into the sky and the timer is to help you avoid forgetting and maybe get in trouble if the laser stayed on aimed into the sky til the batteries go down. Maybe a plane would accidentally fly into the path if the owner of the laser just left it on and wasn't watching to avoid such. I think the timer can be defeated, but would need to read the manual again.

Dunno if my green laser would stand up to weapons fire, though it is a high-quality device for ordinary purposes. You can get cheap chinese green lasers off ebay that may or may not fail at any random time, and may or may not have the advertised power. Folks buying em for astronomy, lots of amateur astronomy happens in the winter when only a fool would sit freezing in the wee hours of the morning just to look at a dim smudge in the sky. Cheap green lasers don't reliably lase if the temperature gets much below freezing. Just sayin, the cheapo green weapons lasers probably come from the same chinese factories that churn out the cheapo handheld green lasers?

Even in the day time, you don't have to go looking for the little green dot. It is obvious as the nose on one's face. At night you would have to be blind not to see the green dot, right away. It would draw the eye it is so bright. If using a green laser in the dark, not only would the dot be incredibly bright and visible, you would see a bright green line in the air stretching from yer weapon to the target. It is pretty easy to point something that has a bright green line stretching out into the air.

A decent "barely legal" green laser is also bright enough to damage retinas if somebody was to look too long into the laser. At the upper limit of legal power, the law expects people's normal blink response to limit dangerous exposure. If a laser is strong enough to damage a retina in the time span of a blink response, it is too strong for unlicensed general sale. Just sayin, if you swipe somebody across the eyes with a green laser at night, it probably woudn't damage their retina unless they were so intoxicated that the blink response is compromised. But it would mess up their vision bad enough for a few minutes that they might have trouble aiming at you, or maybe even finding you if you have some maneuvering room for evasion.

I dunno nothin, just spouting off. Maybe some of the above conclusions are valid and maybe not.

No lasers will not turn you into Annie Oakley but one value of a laser seems to be over looked. The intimidation factor, laser dot on chest = eyes the size of saucers.

Yep, am guessing that it would have a fabulous intimidation factor.

I got a a new laser for my ruger. I'm taking it to the range to sight it in next week. But I'll mostly be using the regular gun sights at the range.

Often the laser grips are pretty close sighted in from the factory. My CT grips were pretty close. Maybe it isn't real critical as long as it is close?

When I was getting annoyed that the laser grips weren't helping the shooting, I tried "precise" sighting in the laser by clamping it in blocks in the basement shop vise, aimed at a spot on the far wall of the basement. And then adjusted the laser dot to hide right behind the pistol sights. The laser dot ought to be pointed exactly where the iron sights were pointed (assuming the iron sights are somewhere close to true point of aim).

But that brought up another question, am curious how an expert would use a pistol laser-- If the dot is aimed exactly where the sights are aimed, and you use the gun sights, you never see the laser dot except maybe some side-glow. Well maybe in medium-light conditions that would be a good thing. If you can see the sights good enough to aim, then if you can see the laser dot then you know you ain't got the iron sights lined up good?

But if one was intending to fast-aim using the laser alone, and it was adjusted precisely in-line so it is obscured by the front sight, am guessing you would have to adjust the stance, and hold the gun a couple inches low, so you can see over the top of the gun and see the dot?

[Jesse]

Well we sleep in the dark in our home. The gun sights would be useless in an emergency. As long as my laser was on the target i think it would be a hit. I rather have the laser if we had a shootout in the dark.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Well we sleep in the dark in our home. The gun sights would be useless in an emergency. As long as my laser was on the target i think it would be a hit. I rather have the laser if we had a shootout in the dark.

Yep, makes perfect sense. Even night sights are pretty dim and difficult to see.

It just needs some practice. I remember when I'd check out laser grips indoors at a gun shop or gun show, the red dot seemed so bright and easy to see. Shine it way across toward the ceiling at the far wall of the armory and still see the red dot bright as day.

So if somebody enjoys indoor range shooting they could get in the practice. Maybe some of the "full size gun" crimson trace red lasers are brighter, but the CT laser grips I put on my S&W 649 and NAA .380-- They are easy to see indoors but were invisible out of doors in the daytime at the range. Only visible out of doors on the gloomiest overcast days or getting near sundown. So I never got enough practice time with them.

[Will Carry]

I train with and without lazers. They will not make you a better shot but they could save you life, under certain circumstances.

[TN-popo]

one value of a laser seems to be over looked. The intimidation factor, laser dot on chest = eyes the size of saucers.

If pointing a gun at them won't accomplish that, only bullets will.

When it comes to lethal force encounters, "intimidation factor" is so unreliable and insignificant that it shouldn't even blip on your radar.

My humble opinion.

Edited September 30, 2012 by TN-popo

[NRA]

If pointing a gun at them won't accomplish that, only bullets will.

When it comes to lethal force encounters, "intimidation factor" is so unreliable and insignificant that it shouldn't even blip on your radar.

My humble opinion.

??????? have you ever had to pull a gun on some one?

[TN-popo]

??????? have you ever had to pull a gun on some one?

Numerous times over my 18 year LE career (some of which was spent in Nashville's housing projects).

Back to the point, you disagree. That's cool, and it makes for good discussions.

Regards.

[NRA]

Numerous times over my 18 year LE career (some of which was spent in Nashville's housing projects).

Back to the point, you disagree. That's cool, and it makes for good discussions.

Regards.

all's good bro

Edited September 30, 2012 by NRA

[RichardR]

But that brought up another question, am curious how an expert would use a pistol laser-- If the dot is aimed exactly where the sights are aimed, and you use the gun sights, you never see the laser dot except maybe some side-glow. Well maybe in medium-light conditions that would be a good thing. If you can see the sights good enough to aim, then if you can see the laser dot then you know you ain't got the iron sights lined up good?

But if one was intending to fast-aim using the laser alone, and it was adjusted precisely in-line so it is obscured by the front sight, am guessing you would have to adjust the stance, and hold the gun a couple inches low, so you can see over the top of the gun and see the dot?

I adjust the laser dot so that it sits directly on top of my front sight post when looking down the irons, I usually index them for 21 feet, of course the closer or farther from that index point the greater the POA/POI off-set is going to be, but if they are indexed at 21' its going to be plenty accurate for most SD scenarios.

[Sam1]

Well we sleep in the dark in our home. The gun sights would be useless in an emergency. As long as my laser was on the target i think it would be a hit. I rather have the laser if we had a shootout in the dark.

Have you considered using a light on it instead of a laser? If it's a home only weapon that would be my preference.