More gang activity

[RobertNashville]

...

I fully agree with that. I don't try and softly dance around the subject and talk about decriminalization of pot. I am willing to walk things out to their logical conclusions. I support the repeal of ALL drug prohibition laws. What I choose to ingest is nobody's business, especially the government. That is a simple matter of personal liberty. As long as I don't take actions that directly endanger others (like operating a car under the influence) they what right does anyone have to determine what I can or cannot choose to do to myself? What right do I have to make that determination for somebody else? I don't.

And liberty is probably the only basis on which to make/change the public policy regarding drugs...my primary concern would be that if the laws are changed, there must be very strong (as in almost never get out of jail) penalties for anyone who, by their decision to use drugs, negatively impacts (or physically harms/kills) others.

[Tennjed]

I see zero reason to single out "pot"...I believe that if we are going to make any changes to drug laws as they now exist; then either it should ALL be legal or ALL be illegal. That's what I was trying to get across when I said...

The only reason I single out pot is because society has already singled out alcohol. If we do what you say we would need to either outlaw alcohol or legalize everything. Neither of those is feasible. Legalizing pot is

Edited September 26, 2012 by Tennjed

[DaveTN]

This discussion is crazy…. I gotta have a drink.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

A "drug crime" perhaps most likely NOT to be victimless might be indiscriminate use of antibiotics. A "crime" which probably isn't usually even a misdemeanor.

If a tiny percentage, one or two percent, a few million, of hypochondriacs were to indiscriminately consume antibiotics for every sniffle, ache and pain, would breed super-bugs that could kill us all. Therefore indiscriminate consumption of antibiotics would have lots of victims, strangers the hypochondriac will never even meet.

[Chucktshoes]

A "drug crime" perhaps most likely NOT to be victimless might be indiscriminate use of antibiotics. A "crime" which probably isn't usually even a misdemeanor.

If a tiny percentage, one or two percent, a few million, of hypochondriacs were to indiscriminately consume antibiotics for every sniffle, ache and pain, would breed super-bugs that could kill us all. Therefore indiscriminate consumption of antibiotics would have lots of victims, strangers the hypochondriac will never even meet.

That ship has already sailed. See "necrotizing fasciitis."

[DaveS]

Since you drink do you mind me asking if you are in favor of legalizing marijuana?

I grew up in the 60's and 70's and was around friends whom regularly smoked pot. It was something I never cared to do. And, after seeing their actions and behavior, didn't want to see them smoke pot either. A long, long time ago....

As I sit here reading these post, I am drinking a very frosted mug of Sam Adams Octoberfest, with a rich creamy foamy head rolling over the top sides of my mug. I wish NOT TO SEE POT BECOME LEGAL! I've seen too many friends go to hell in a hand basket over pot. Not very many on Alcohol.

Dave S

[DaveTN]

Does anyone here think for a minute that if drugs were legalized they would be cheaper? What… you think the government is going to let you go down to Mexico and buy pot by the garbage bag full, or fly down to Columbia and pick up a few Kilos of coke for the family? Or maybe you think they will let you grow it in your yard?

Of course not. There would be state and Federal licenses, inspectors, store requirements, distributor’s, special transportation fees, etc., etc., etc. That’s all before both the Feds and the State pile on their huge azz tax. Look what they are doing with cigarettes right now; taxes are going through the roof. Why? Because the biggest base of smokers are poor people; and they have no power to fight it. Rich people drink, so they kinda try to keep a lid on the liquor taxes; but they are still loaded with sin tax. This would be the biggest sin tax of all. It is not going to keep the drug users from burglarizing your house, holding up the local Stop and Rob, or sticking a gun in your face at the ATM.

What it would do is bring in new recruits faster and easier. When they see Mommy and Daddy burning a bowl, snorting lines, or shooting up, and its legal; they are real easy pickins for the next generation of social misfits. I don’t want to deal with the added crime, let alone have my taxes go to deal with obvious fallout.

[Sam1]

I am seeing an increase in local activity, seems to be a lot of restlessness lately, lots of small fights erupting, groups of kids & young adults roaming around at night being loud and obnoxious.

Not sure what is going on yet, could just be that they are taking advantage of the cooler weather.

The wife and I were talking about that recently, and do you think it could be that a lot of the summer jobs (illegal or under the table as well as students losing full-time and switching back to part-time) are coming to a close?

[Sam1]

Does anyone here think for a minute that if drugs were legalized they would be cheaper?

Anyone that thinks it would be cheaper has obviously not been to Amsterdam.

[DaveS]

I think that legalizing drugs would cause major "gang" problems. Look what happened when alcohol got taxed...mofia killings over who could sell the most "un-taxed" liquer. Al Capone maybe? We could legalize drugs, there would still be illegal drug sales by the gangs selling "untaxed" drugs. More pot would be grown, more meth manufactured and more and more illegal drugs sold even if LEGAL! WE DON'T NEED IT!!

I had a friend rob a gas station with a .38 special snubnose that he took from his dad. Terry robbed the gas station and bought pot with the money. I have never had or heard of any of my friends robbing anyone to buy alcohol.

Dave S

[Jonnin]

I think that legalizing drugs would cause major "gang" problems. Look what happened when alcohol got taxed...mofia killings over who could sell the most "un-taxed" liquer. Al Capone maybe? We could legalize drugs, there would still be illegal drug sales by the gangs selling "untaxed" drugs. More pot would be grown, more meth manufactured and more and more illegal drugs sold even if LEGAL! WE DON'T NEED IT!!

I had a friend rob a gas station with a .38 special snubnose that he took from his dad. Terry robbed the gas station and bought pot with the money. I have never had or heard of any of my friends robbing anyone to buy alcohol.

Dave S

and you won't. Its more efficient to steal the booze directly. Mugging a drug dealer, bad plan.

[Tennjed]

<br /><br />I grew up in the 60's and 70's and was around friends whom regularly smoked pot. It was something I never cared to do. And, after seeing their actions and behavior, didn't want to see them smoke pot either. A long, long time ago....<br /> As I sit here reading these post, I am drinking a very frosted mug of Sam Adams Octoberfest, with a rich creamy foamy head rolling over the top sides of my mug. I wish NOT TO SEE POT BECOME LEGAL! I've seen too many friends go to hell in a hand basket over pot. Not very many on Alcohol.<br /><br />Dave S

<br /><br /.

>I respect your opinion but if you have seen few people or families effected by alcohol then you are in the minority. Plug your zip code in AAs website and see how many meetings are in your area. Visit your local jail and see how many crimes were commuted while drunk. 100,000 dead and countless families torn apart. It is far more powerful than pot and it's damage is far reaching.

>Now the flip side of the argument. Should your cold beer be taken away from you because millions cannot handle it responsible

Your example of the robbery is strange. The vast majority of gun crimes involve alcohol. No offense poor example

You are a drug user. It may be a legal drug but a drug just the same. Why should your drug, which is more dangerous, be legal, when someone else's cannot

Edited September 27, 2012 by Tennjed

[DaveS]

<br /><br /.

>I respect your opinion but if you have seen few people or families effected by alcohol then you are in the minority. Plug your zip code in AAs website and see how many meetings are in your area. Visit your local jail and see how many crimes were commuted while drunk. 100,000 dead and countless families torn apart. It is far more powerful than pot and it's damage is far reaching.

>Now the flip side of the argument. Should your cold beer be taken away from you because millions cannot handle it responsible

Your example of the robbery is strange. The vast majority of gun crimes involve alcohol. No offense poor example

You are a drug user. It may be a legal drug but a drug just the same. Why should your drug, which is more dangerous, be legal, when someone else's cannot

His gun crime involved smoking pot laced with what he called "angel dust", he was out of pot and wanted more. So he robbed the gas station. Your opinion about alcohol is the same as mine about drugs. If it is ever put to us voters...well sir, you know where I stand. Legal drugs would send street crimes reeling out of control! I honestly beleive that!

Do you partake in a "cold brew" once in awhile? Just curious.....

Dave S

[Tennjed]

His gun crime involved smoking pot laced with what he called "angel dust", he was out of pot and wanted more. So he robbed the gas station. Your opinion about alcohol is the same as mine about drugs. If it is ever put to us voters...well sir, you know where I stand. Legal drugs would send street crimes reeling out of control! I honestly beleive that!

Do you partake in a "cold brew" once in awhile? Just curious.....

Dave S

Not in years. 3 uncles and 2 aunts die from it.

You friend would have been much better off if pot was legal. It would not have contained angle dust.

The difference between my opinion is there are stats and facts that support the problems alcohol causes on society. I will look some up when I get home but almost all gun crime involves alcohol.

The facts back up the danger of alcohol on society. Why should your drug be the legal one?

Not in years. 3 uncles and 2 aunts deid from it.

You friend would have been much better off if pot was legal. It would not have contained angle dust.

The difference between my opinion

Edited September 27, 2012 by Tennjed

[R_Bert]

Even if pot were legalized, it would never catch on. You can't "butt-chug" it at a frat house......

[Guest 6.8 AR]

<br /><br /.

>I respect your opinion but if you have seen few people or families effected by alcohol then you are in the minority. Plug your zip code in AAs website and see how many meetings are in your area. Visit your local jail and see how many crimes were commuted while drunk. 100,000 dead and countless families torn apart. It is far more powerful than pot and it's damage is far reaching.

>Now the flip side of the argument. Should your cold beer be taken away from you because millions cannot handle it responsible

Your example of the robbery is strange. The vast majority of gun crimes involve alcohol. No offense poor example

You are a drug user. It may be a legal drug but a drug just the same. Why should your drug, which is more dangerous, be legal, when someone else's cannot

I've been guilty in taking both sides in this discussion, and the problem with legalizing something like pot,

this late in the game, is that it would take that huge bureacracy(sp) to license, regulate and enforce and all the other

changes that it wouldn't be workable. Those things take time and society is used to it being illegal.

Maybe there would be a slight benefit to decriminalizing the drug to some extent, but it isn't like alcohol, which has

been socially acceptable before this country came into existence. For a social drug, it still has no benefit that I can

see, not that I condone excessive drinking, but social drinking usually doesn't cause the carnage some say it does.

There are those who will always favor legalizing pot and will compare it to alcohol every time. Pot should have remained

as the key ingredient in rope making. And, if for no other reason, I don't want the federal government to have another

avenue to tax.

[Tennjed]

I've been guilty in taking both sides in this discussion, and the problem with legalizing something like pot,

this late in the game, is that it would take that huge bureacracy(sp) to license, regulate and enforce and all the other

changes that it wouldn't be workable. Those things take time and society is used to it being illegal.

Maybe there would be a slight benefit to decriminalizing the drug to some extent, but it isn't like alcohol, which has

been socially acceptable before this country came into existence. For a social drug, it still has no benefit that I can

see, not that I condone excessive drinking, but social drinking usually doesn't cause the carnage some say it does.

There are those who will always favor legalizing pot and will compare it to alcohol every time. Pot should have remained

as the key ingredient in rope making. And, if for no other reason, I don't want the federal government to have another

avenue to tax.

More and more people are used to it as a recreational drug and the logistics of legalizing it is quite possible. We already have medical her and other countries to draw experiences from.

Social drinking may not cause immediate carnage drinking at the bar (except 25k in drunk driving deaths) but the long term carnage is there.

There are treatment centers in every decent sized town in America. Virtually no one is in them for pot and a vast majority are in for alcohol.

The AA handbook is one of the most printed books of all time. No one reads it that has a handle on drinking. Most violent crimes involve alcohol.

The dangers of the 2 are not comparable

Edited September 27, 2012 by Tennjed

[Guest Razz]

Wow...that was a lot of reading. Interesting takes on the issue.

My $.02:

If marijuana is legalized IT WILL BE CHEAPER TO AQUIRE. It is extremely easy to grow and flower. Will people spend exorbitant amounts of money on it? Sure...but they won't have to.

As far as other narcotics go, I am on the fence about legaliizing them. I do think people should be able to make choices for themselves as long as those choices don't adversely affect others.

Will overall crime go down? Probably not. Bangers are going to "get paid" one way or another. Extortion and ransom would likely take the place of illicit drug trade. Think of how much more room there'd be in prison for violent offenders if we let out the non-violent pot-heads...lol

Edited September 27, 2012 by Razz

[RobertNashville]

More and more people are used to it as a recreational drug and the logistics of legalizing it is quite possible. We already have medical her and other countries to draw experiences from.

Social drinking may not cause immediate carnage drinking at the bar (except 25k in drunk driving deaths) but the long term carnage is there.

There are treatment centers in every decent sized town in America. Virtually no one is in them for pot and a vast majority are in for alcohol.

The AA handbook is one of the most printed books of all time. No one reads it that has a handle on drinking. Most violent crimes involve alcohol.

The dangers of the 2 are not comparable

I don't really give a you-know-what abut how many treatment centers there are. Common sense would tell most people that alcohol is far more widely used than pot...

More than half of all Americans aged 12 or older report that they are current drinkers. In the latest national survey, 51.9% of those surveyed said they were current drinkers, or an estimate 130.6 million people. This information is from the National Survey on Drug Use and Health (NSDUH), an annual interview of approximately 67,500 people, asking about their alcohol and drug use in the past year.

According to the National Survey on Drug Use and Health, in 2009, 16.7 million Americans aged 12 or older used marijuana at least once in the month prior to being surveyed, an increase over the rates reported in all years between 2002 and 2008. There was also a significant increase among youth aged 12-17, with current use up from 6.7 percent in 2008 to 7.3 percent in 2009, although this rate is lower than what was reported in 2002 (8.2 percent). Past-month use also increased among those 18-25, from 16.5 percent in 2008 to 18.1 percent in 2009.

In other words, roughly eight times as many people use alcohol regularly compared to pot smokers...I'd say it stands to reason that with over half the U.S. population using alcohol on some sort of regular basis, it's likely that you are going to find more than a few who become addicted to it and have problems because of it and, hence, a corresponding number of treatment centers/12 step programs.

You keep throwing around quite a few broad phrases and absolute terms but not a whole lot of facts to substantiate them.

It's obvious you want pot legalized and maybe a case can be made for legalizing pot but I don't think the case can rest on "reduced crime" or "reduced gang violence". The only way that argument works is if all drugs are legalized...limiting it to pot is simply not logical.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

I really think the ones who want it legalized so bad are mostly people who want to smoke it. I was a teenager once, and I didn't care about it, but the stuff around it was alluring. "Aw, yeh, he's making this up". Believe what you want. I do, too. I don't see the benefit in the stuff for the argument to be carried on as long as it has. When you guys use that argument for medicinal mary jane, that reminds me of all the rationalizing about the abortion argument. Two different issues using the same type of argument. That's another reason for me to come out against legalizing the stuff. There's too much case law involved, too many side issues concerning safety in the workplace, and I'm sure if you're really interested, there are more, but if you like the stuff so much, go smoke it. Odds are you won't get caught. That's how much of an issue this is. You can argue this issue until the cows come home. Enjoy it!

I don't even consider this a libertarian argument because there are so many more important, fundamental issues to tackle before this joke needs to be dealt with.

Gang crime and pot may be hand in hand but legalizing pot won't do anything to the gang issue. Gangs will just move their cash stream somewhere else. Broken homes contribute more to the gang problem than whether or not it is with pot or something else. Go do some damn charity work in inner cities working with kids, before you go home and smoke a bowl.

Edited September 27, 2012 by 6.8 AR

[Tennjed]

I don't really give a you-know-what abut how many treatment centers there are. Common sense would tell most people that alcohol is far more widely used than pot...

In other words, roughly eight times as many people use alcohol regularly compared to pot smokers...I'd say it stands to reason that with over half the U.S. population using alcohol on some sort of regular basis, it's likely that you are going to find more than a few who become addicted to it and have problems because of it and, hence, a corresponding number of treatment centers/12 step programs.

You keep throwing around quite a few broad phrases and absolute terms but not a whole lot of facts to substantiate them.

It's obvious you want pot legalized and maybe a case can be made for legalizing pot but I don't think the case can rest on "reduced crime" or "reduced gang violence". The only way that argument works is if all drugs are legalized...limiting it to pot is simply not logical.

Actually I prefer that alcohol be illegal. I will back up my statements when I get home. Not really sure how to link or copy and paste from my phone. Not sure what broad statement you want me to back up but I can.

Alcohol kills more than 100,000 a year

Most gun crime involves alcohol

Alcohol is physically addictive (pot is not)

You can OD on alcohol (can't on pot)

Most spousal abuse involves alcohol

All of those are well documented and easy to prove. What I want to do is show the irony that some many drug users (alcohol) see no problem with their drug being legal, but are against pot being legal. They are not willing to give up their drug for the betterment of society but have no problem making that decision for others Every gas station and supermarket is a drug dealer. Ever beer drinker is a drug user. What gives one drug user the right to tell another drug user they can not do drugs?

[Tennjed]

One half of all traffic accidents are alcohol related. U.S.A. Today

An estimated 23,200 murdered in U.S. last year Newsweek -

Of all murders, alcohol was involved in at least 34% of cases.

Rape - More than 1/2 of rapists had been drinking.

Child abuse - mothers convicted are 3 times more likely to be alcoholics - fathers 10 times more likely.

Suicide - Up to 36% of victims were drinking just before. Prodigy Services Co. -

Heavy drinking is involved in 60% of violent crimes, 30% of suicides, and 80% of fire and drowning accidents.

The suicide rate of alcoholics is 30 times that of the general population. AFA journal -

Alcohol related crashes kills someone in the U.S. every 22 minutes. At any minute, one of 50 drivers on the road is drunk and every weekend night, one out of 10 is drunk.

According to the Center for Disease Control in Atlanta, there are 105,000 alcohol related deaths annually due to drunken drivers and alcohol related injuries and diseases. AFA journal

Alcohol related accidents are the leading cause of deaths among young people. Dallas Times

The damage caused by alcohol impaired drivers is the same as if a Boeing 747 with over 500 passengers crashed every eight days killing everyone.

Drunk drivers are responsible for 1/2 of highway fatal injuries.

65 people each day die on our highways due to alcohol. California Capitol Report -

In 1988, 25,000 Americans were killed in auto accidents involving alcohol. Over one half million were injured. AFA journal -

Edited September 27, 2012 by Tennjed

[Tennjed]

The use of alcohol cost $15 billion (1983) for health care and treatment.

The economic cost of alcohol abuse is projected to be $150 billion in 1995. Alcohol & Health - U.S. dept. of H.H.S. 1/90

No doubt these numbers are higher now

[RobertNashville]

Alcohol is not bad. Alcohol abuse is bad.

You don't have to convince me that alcohol abuse is bad and causes other bad things to happen.

However, I have a better chance of winning the Powerball lottery and being elected president of United States and throwing the winning touchdown in a Super Bowl game and all happening on the same day compared to the chance of making alcohol illegal.

It's also a bit disingenuous of you to claim that you want to make pot legal and that doing so will reduce crime and gang violence when what you really want is to make alcohol illegal. If making pot legal is going to reduce crime and gang violence what the hell do you think making alcohol illegal is going to do?

Actually, we don't have to think about what making I'll call illegal will do because we already have plenty of experience with that.

[Tennjed]

http://m.aol.com/dailyfinance/default/articleStory.do?category=main&url=http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/11/01/alcohol-is-societys-most-dangerous-drug/&icid=dsk_df_news

Alcohol is more dangerous to society than illegal drugs such as crack cocaine and heroin, a new British study published in the medical journal The Lancet finds. The findings are a direct challenge to the systems of drug classification and legislation that currently prevail in most nations.

Scoring highest, alcohol was the most harmful drug compared to others in the study -- and by a wide margin. Part of the reason for this stems from the law of large numbers, professor David Nutt of London's Imperial College, who led the study, explained in a BBC interview. Because alcohol is so widely used, it has a huge impact on society. Alcohol scored 46 in the study's damage assessment system, followed by a distant second, heroin (21). In third place was crack cocaine (17), with tobacco, cannabis and cocaine rounding out the highest six.