More gang activity

[Chucktshoes]

So, we're winning the "war on drugs" then?

Of course we are! Have been ever since Nixon declared it.

[RobertNashville]

I guess that if we aren't winning the "war on drugs" we should stop fighting?

I would assume, then, that since we haven't stopped crime, drug related or not, we should just go ahead and diss-ban all aw enforcement agencies; after all, no need to waste all that money on a war we aren't winning.

[Tennjed]

I'm not sure I care about the mfg quality of the addict's drug of choice. I do care a if he becomes a burden on society.

I don't think the quality of the drug will make addiction any less likely.

It is a bigger burden on society now. The fact that pot is illegal and alcohol is legal is absurd. Legal alcohol is far worse a burden on society than legal weed could ever be. Weed is not physically addictive or fatal like alcohol. For the record I am not a fan of pot so much as I have seen the effects of alcohol on families.

Legalizing it would take the money out of the hands of the gangbangers. The only reason violence associated with pot exist is because of the money associated with it. Would crime shift to another area, probably. Does that mean we should not do what is smart/right, absolutely not.

anyone who is not in favor of legalizing pot then sure as heck needs to be for outlawing alcohol. If you are not then you really need to look further into your priorities and the actual facts

[RobertNashville]

It is a bigger burden on society now.

Really? You know that or you just believe it or want to believe it? If you know that then please feel free to share the data that shows that statement to be true.

The fact that pot is illegal and alcohol is legal is absurd. Legal alcohol is far worse a burden on society than legal weed could ever be.

And...you know that or you just believe it or want to believe it? If you know that then please feel free to share the data that shows that statement to be true.

Legalizing it would take the money out of the hands of the gangbangers. The only reason violence associated with pot exist is because of the money associated with it. Would crime shift to another area, probably. Does that mean we should not do what is smart/right, absolutely not.

Anyone who is not in favor of legalizing pot then sure as heck needs to be for outlawing alcohol. If you are not then you really need to look further into your priorities and the actual facts

If you can provide facts I'll be happy to look at them. In the meantime, where do you get the idea that we are talking about and only about marijuana???

The issue is de-criminalizing "drugs" and if the argument for de-criminalize marijuana is to take money out of the hands of "ganbangers" and take away the alleged motive for crime then you can't just stop at marijuana or the argument makes no sense and loses what little creditability it has.

Strictly for myself, if alcohol was made an Illegal drug it wouldn't affect me much at all...I could easily give my two or three bottles of wine and the two or three mixed drinks I indulge in each year but at the same time, I see no reason to change the status-quot. I've seen what alcohol addiction does to individuals and families and I've seen what drug addiction (narcotics, opiates, etc) does to individuals and families; neither is good but if we are going to start ascribing levels of "bad" to each type of category then from my experience, drug addition would win every time as the worst.

[daddyo]

Really? You know that or you just believe it or want to believe it? If you know that then please feel free to share the data that shows that statement to be true.

If that's really your view, then you need to start providing facts and figures to prove your opinion is valid every time you post one.

[Tennjed]

Really? You know that or you just believe it or want to believe it? If you know that then please feel free to share the data that shows that statement to be true.

And...you know that or you just believe it or want to believe it? If you know that then please feel free to share the data that shows that statement to be true.

If you can provide facts I'll be happy to look at them. In the meantime, where do you get the idea that we are talking about and only about marijuana???

The issue is de-criminalizing "drugs" and if the argument for de-criminalize marijuana is to take money out of the hands of "ganbangers" and take away the alleged motive for crime then you can't just stop at marijuana or the argument makes no sense and loses what little creditability it has.

Strictly for myself, if alcohol was made an Illegal drug it wouldn't affect me much at all...I could easily give my two or three bottles of wine and the two or three mixed drinks I indulge in each year but at the same time, I see no reason to change the status-quot. I've seen what alcohol addiction does to individuals and families and I've seen what drug addiction (narcotics, opiates, etc) does to individuals and families; neither is good but if we are going to start ascribing levels of "bad" to each type of category then from my experience, drug addition would win every time as the worst.

Maybe I am wrong to assume most gang drug money comes from pot, if so I apologize. I will state as a fact that alcohol kills over 100.000 people in this country every year. Pot zero, I am at work and posting from my phone, but will post facts tonight if needed. Although it is really easy to find them yourself.

As far as weed being illegal causing more or a burden I will post facts about that later also. Although it doesn't take rocket science to know that a drug that is not fatal (in any amount) would be less a burden on society than the killings that take place over the gang money

Again I see your point about the other drugs and I may be wrong to assume that most gang drug money comes from pot. But no body can make a legitimate argument that alcohol should be legal and marijuanna not. It is impossible. Every negative thing that can be said about weed can be said several times over with alcohol.

Alcohol kills 100,000 a year

Pot zero

Alcohol is fatal in large doses

You cannot OD on pot

Alcohol addiction is so severe it can be leathal to quit cold turkey

Weed is not physically addictive

Look it up if you can't wait till I post more tonight

[JayC]

*shrug* I believe that even if you legalized narcotics there would still be plenty of gangs, violence and crime.

It really just boils down to the fact that bad people just do bad things, extortion, kidnapping, rapes, robberies, all of that will still go on, maybe the lower cost of legalized narcotics will help reduce it some because "junkies" will have an easier time aquiring their fixes, but I just don't think that bad people will suddenly stop doing bad things as a result.

Doing what? Making money how?

Will you completely do away with bad people doing bad things? No.

But, none of the things you listed make money like drugs do... They are all high risk low reward type of activities... We'd never see gangs fighting over 'rape' street corners... Organized crime requires money, a lot of money... With maybe the exception of KnR, if you take prohibition away these groups won't be able to make enough money to stay in business...

And we did have gangs before prohibition, there are some types of crimes that can support small groups of organized criminals... we're never going to do away with that. But, why pass laws that create criminal gangs with enough money to topple foreign governments?

Will there always be criminals? yes... will they sometimes get together and do bad things? yes...

But, they won't have the GDP of a small nation state if you take away prohibition.

Edited September 26, 2012 by JayC

[TMF]

Follow the money. This goes in EVERY direction.

[JayC]

I'm not sure I care about the mfg quality of the addict's drug of choice. I do care a if he becomes a burden on society.

I don't think the quality of the drug will make addiction any less likely.

They're ALREADY a burden on society! How much more of a burden can they get if we repeal prohibition?

So solution A: Make the drugs illegal, even though there is a high demand for the drugs, create horrible violence in our streets, loss of civil liabilities, and a small war on our southern border which is starting to spill over into our country.

Or solution B: Repeal prohibition, the current druggies continue to cause problems, we're still having to deal with the issues we do today... but we get a 'prohibition dividend' get reducing government spending on police officers by 50-75% and all the foreign aid we spend on the drug war.

Or even better solution C: Move the social safety net back where it belongs to private groups and churches and get rid of 100% of the government funding of safety nets.

Of course there would still be plenty of crime. Unless they plan on making the dope free; the dopers will still need money. A pack of cigarettes is $5 and going up, all tax. Pot would cost more than it does now.

And it still won’t be “legal†for those that have to work for a living. Companies aren’t going to change their drugs policies; test positive and you are out. Just another nail in the U.S. manufacturing coffin.

Drugs are the reason people will break into your homes, and the reason you need to carry a gun.

How many years were you a police officer? Tell me the number of times you saw somebody do a home invasion to get cigarette money?

Drugs are very expensive today, once legalized, even with a 100% tax on them, they would still end up being much less than they are today.

As for work place issues... just like it's a great way to get fired to be drunk on the job, being high will continue to be a great way to loose your job... But, for the most part we're already doing that...

The cost of being a drug addict isn't going to increase property crime, because the cost will go down... I suspect you can't buy 20 joints for $5 on the street today, my guess is that 20 joints costs upwards for $50+ on the street today... they same would be true for all drugs, the costs would go down.

I'll also point out, how many robberies have you heard about for Viagra?

So again what is the downside?

Edited September 26, 2012 by JayC

[BryanP]

Alcohol kills 100,000 a year

Pot zero

Incorrect. Absolute statements are almost never accurate.

http://pediatrics.aa...5.full.pdf html

Alcohol is fatal in large doses

You cannot OD on pot

Alcohol is a CNS depressant and can kill you quite easily if overused. It is accurate to say that it would be exceedingly difficult to overdose on THC, but everything has an LD50 dose.

Alcohol addiction is so severe it can be leathal to quit cold turkey

Weed is not physically addictive

THC is not physically addictive, true enough. Psychological addiction is something else, and if you've ever dealt with addiction in others you'd know that's every bit as important. Most physically addictive substances are out of your system and you're completely through withdrawal from the physical addiction in a matter of weeks at most, yet most addicts relapse.

As mind altering substances go it's probably one of the more benign ones out there. I fall on the side of "legalize it, tax it and let things sort out", but don't try to pretend it's completely harmless either. Marijuana is every bit as bad (or worse) than tobacco when it comes to the cancer-causing substances it puts in your system, for example.

[xRUSTYx]

I agree with Tennjed to a certian extent, but jed, you really need to back up arguments with reports/facts/data brother

I don't smoke pot, nor have I ever enjoyed it, however, I have a good friend and my brother who use it daily. My brother is a high level executive and uses pot to deal with anxiety. Watching him work & do what he does is what changed my opinion of MaryJ. I always thought "Potheads" were like "Alcoholic's". Lazy citizens of society. It wasn't until I was introduced to those that use it for LEGIT medicinal purposes that I changed my mind.

No doubt, if pot was legalized, it would be legally abused like alcohol. More deaths/accidents would be blamed on pot, etc... etc... However, I do feel MaryJ (unlike Alcohol) -- Actually carries quite a few medicinal qualities.

When you look at the data, its hard not to justify legalizing it:

Alcohol-Related Deaths Kill More Than AIDS, TB or Violence

http://www.huffingto...-_n_821900.html

How Many People Are Actually Killed By Drugs

http://druglibrary.o...y/basicfax3.htm

Edited September 26, 2012 by xRUSTYx

[Tennjed]

<br /><br />Incorrect. Absolute statements are almost never accurate.<br /><br />http://pediatrics.aa...5.full.pdf html<br /><br /><br /><br />Alcohol is a CNS depressant and can kill you quite easily if overused. It is accurate to say that it would be exceedingly difficult to overdose on THC, but everything has an LD50 dose.<br /><br /><br /><br />THC is not physically addictive, true enough. Psychological addiction is something else, and if you've ever dealt with addiction in others you'd know that's every bit as important. Most physically addictive substances are out of your system and you're completely through withdrawal from the physical addiction in a matter of weeks at most, yet most addicts relapse.<br /><br />As mind altering substances go it's probably one of the more benign ones out there. I fall on the side of "legalize it, tax it and let things sort out", but don't try to pretend it's completely harmless either. Marijuana is every bit as bad (or worse) than tobacco when it comes to the cancer-causing substances it puts in your system, for example.

<br /><br />

Can you help me with the link you posted. I can not read the whole paper at the moment. How many people a year die from marijuana

For the record I never said it was harmless, if you go back to my original message I am more anti alcohol than pro pot.

What amazes me is we have this "war on drugs" but we celebrate alcohol. Alcohol is one of the biggest plagued we have on society but it is treated like it is the greatest thing.

I am dumbfounded that some people can say pot should be illegal and say so with a beer in their hand. It shows a level of ignorance that is shameful

Edited September 26, 2012 by Tennjed

[xRUSTYx]

Also found a really interesting website of Drug Facts

http://www.drugwarfacts.org

[Tennjed]

Double post

Edited September 26, 2012 by Tennjed

[DaveTN]

So, we're winning the "war on drugs" then?

Should we find out? Should we legalize drugs and see if drug usage and the crime that goes along with it skyrockets? I have no doubt that it would, but I’m not ready to sacrifice family or friends for an experiment so some people can have their dope.

It would be like removing the DUI laws; innocent people will die.

[RobertNashville]

Maybe I am wrong to assume most gang drug money comes from pot, if so I apologize. I will state as a fact that alcohol kills over 100.000 people in this country every year. Pot zero, I am at work and posting from my phone, but will post facts tonight if needed. Although it is really easy to find them yourself.

As far as weed being illegal causing more or a burden I will post facts about that later also. Although it doesn't take rocket science to know that a drug that is not fatal (in any amount) would be less a burden on society than the killings that take place over the gang money

Again I see your point about the other drugs and I may be wrong to assume that most gang drug money comes from pot. But no body can make a legitimate argument that alcohol should be legal and marijuanna not. It is impossible. Every negative thing that can be said about weed can be said several times over with alcohol.

Alcohol kills 100,000 a year

Pot zero

Alcohol is fatal in large doses

You cannot OD on pot

Alcohol addiction is so severe it can be leathal to quit cold turkey

Weed is not physically addictive

Look it up if you can't wait till I post more tonight

For someone who doesn’t particularly like pot I don’t really understand why you keep going back to pot as what you want to discuss? Further, I find the argument about pot and its relation to crime odd - most aficionados of de-criminalizing marijuana are quick to say how it doesn’t make sense for alcohol to be legal to consume while marijuana is illegal…how, for various reasons, it’s a much better “drug†than alcohol (not physically addictive [while ignoring psychological addiction] etc.). You also seem to be implying that legalizing marijuana will positively affect (i.e. decrease) crime but I’m left to wonder exactly how that will happen?

I wonder because by the very argument for legal pot, those who chose to imbibe aren’t negatively affected…they aren’t addicted…they lead normal, productive lives, etc. etc. and if that’s the case; how many of those potheads who aren’t addicted and lead normal, productive lives are breaking into homes to steel stuff to sell so that they have money to buy pot? Is pot really THAT expensive that potheads can’t afford it without steeling money or things they can sell for money? If they are leading normal, productive lives shouldn’t they have all the money they need to buy their drug of choice?

Moreover, if people want to legalize drugs then shouldn’t ALL drugs of any kind be “legal†to buy…buy without a prescription…without a doctor being involved at all…without “liquor stores†or “pot storesâ€â€¦just put it all on convenience store and grocery store shelves for anyone who wants it with no controls of any kind? If not, why not and if not; if we, as a society shouldn’t legalize all drugs and eliminate all controls what possible argument makes sense to make “some†legal and uncontrolled while making others illegal/highly controlled?

Maybe all drugs should be legal; maybe they shouldn’t be but it’s my opinion that anyone who believes that legalizing drugs will have any positive impact on society or crime is, at best, being naive.

[Tennjed]

Should we find out? Should we legalize drugs and see if drug usage and the crime that goes along with it skyrockets? I have no doubt that it would, but I’m not ready to sacrifice family or friends for an experiment so some people can have their dope.

It would be like removing the DUI laws; innocent people will die.

So you are for more regulation on alcohol. Innocent people die with current alcohol laws. I have no doubt than some lived would be saved if we banned it. Alcohol has one purpose, recreation. It is very selfish for a person to think their personal enjoyment of alcohol is more important than the innocent lives lost today

[Jonnin]

<br /><br />Can you help me with the link you posted. I can not read the whole paper at the moment. How many people a year die from marijuana

almost none. Most of the cancer deaths get blamed on tobacco, as a good number of pot smokers also use regular tobacco.

Food products kill more people than drugs right now (heart disease, strokes, diabetes, cancer are the top).

Cars kill more people under 50 than just about anything else, and probably more than everything else combined.

That drug chart is worthless: really, coke and heroin, is this 1982? Crack & meth and whatever cheap, impure, homemade drug of the month are your killers.

Booze and cars and food top the lists until old age (80+) which is a strange cause of death anyway, clearly the old folks die of heart attacks or cancer or whatever but their age becomes a factor that prevents treatment or survival of these things.

As far as it goes I am for legalization of just about everything with 18 being the age of everything (if you can be drafted and be a porn star, you can do anything else too in my book). Let the people alone until they break a real law (stealing to support their habit? Lock them up for 10 years per offense). I see little difference between booze and hard drugs: the hard drugs are actually better because they do the work faster, it takes decades to die of booze, only a couple of years of meth.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Jonnin

[Tennjed]

Double post

Edited September 26, 2012 by Tennjed

[daddyo]

Should we find out? Should we legalize drugs and see if drug usage and the crime that goes along with it skyrockets? I have no doubt that it would, but I’m not ready to sacrifice family or friends for an experiment so some people can have their dope.

It would be like removing the DUI laws; innocent people will die.

I'm sorry the question bothers you, but if the answer is "no" or "I don't know", then maybe it's time to try something else.

Edited September 26, 2012 by DaddyO

[daddyo]

Maybe all drugs should be legal; maybe they shouldn’t be but it’s my opinion that anyone who believes that legalizing drugs will have any positive impact on society or crime is, at best, being naive.

Got some "data" to back that up, do you?

[Tennjed]

For someone who doesn’t particularly like pot I don’t really understand why you keep going back to pot as what you want to discuss? Further, I find the argument about pot and its relation to crime odd - most aficionados of de-criminalizing marijuana are quick to say how it doesn’t make sense for alcohol to be legal to consume while marijuana is illegal…how, for various reasons, it’s a much better “drug†than alcohol (not physically addictive [while ignoring psychological addiction] etc.). You also seem to be implying that legalizing marijuana will positively affect (i.e. decrease) crime but I’m left to wonder exactly how that will happen?

I wonder because by the very argument for legal pot, those who chose to imbibe aren’t negatively affected…they aren’t addicted…they lead normal, productive lives, etc. etc. and if that’s the case; how many of those potheads who aren’t addicted and lead normal, productive lives are breaking into homes to steel stuff to sell so that they have money to buy pot? Is pot really THAT expensive that potheads can’t afford it without steeling money or things they can sell for money? If they are leading normal, productive lives shouldn’t they have all the money they need to buy their drug of choice?

Moreover, if people want to legalize drugs then shouldn’t ALL drugs of any kind be “legal†to buy…buy without a prescription…without a doctor being involved at all…without “liquor stores†or “pot storesâ€â€¦just put it all on convenience store and grocery store shelves for anyone who wants it with no controls of any kind? If not, why not and if not; if we, as a society shouldn’t legalize all drugs and eliminate all controls what possible argument makes sense to make “some†legal and uncontrolled while making others illegal/highly controlled?

Maybe all drugs should be legal; maybe they shouldn’t be but it’s my opinion that anyone who believes that legalizing drugs will have any positive impact on society or crime is, at best, being naive.

Yes I go back to pot because I hope the future generations have a safer alternative to alcohol when they are young and wanting to experiment. I have 3 kids and I would prefer them to not do any mind altering drug, but I hope they have the chance to make a safer choice

Your argument ignores the most important part of the crime/marijuana connection. The money associated with selling it. People die of the money not the drug. Take the money out if the gangs hands, it is a very simple concept

[DaveTN]

So you are for more regulation on alcohol. Innocent people die with current alcohol laws. I have no doubt than some lived would be saved if we banned it. Alcohol has one purpose, recreation. It is very selfish for a person to think their personal enjoyment of alcohol is more important than the innocent lives lost today

I think that within the next few years the BAC level will be dropped to .04 by most states.

No one should drive when they are impaired. The problem is that most people have no idea what .08 BAC is other than a number. When you are impaired, you can’t make good decisions about whether or not you are impaired, and most have no idea what their BAC is; that’s why they blow.

I drink, I sometimes get drunk. I never drive, not even with one beer.

[daddyo]

I think that within the next few years the BAC level will be dropped to .04 by most states.

No one should drive when they are impaired. The problem is that most people have no idea what .08 BAC is other than a number. When you are impaired, you can’t make good decisions about whether or not you are impaired, and most have no idea what their BAC is; that’s why they blow.

I drink, I sometimes get drunk. I never drive, not even with one beer.

So, DUI laws prevent people from drinking and driving then?

[Tennjed]

I think that within the next few years the BAC level will be dropped to .04 by most states.

No one should drive when they are impaired. The problem is that most people have no idea what .08 BAC is other than a number. When you are impaired, you can’t make good decisions about whether or not you are impaired, and most have no idea what their BAC is; that’s why they blow.

I drink, I sometimes get drunk. I never drive, not even with one beer.

Since you drink do you mind me asking if you are in favor of legalizing marijuana?