Electric bug out vehicle

[dunndw]

For some reason,...no I don't drink...I started thinking about electric cars like the Leaf tonight. I wonder it it would be possible to line the horizontal surfaces with enough solar panels to "fuel" the car for a serious long range BOV.

[monkeylizard]

Solar cells wouldn't generate enough power to continuously replenish the batteries as they are used by the motors. Instead, you'd be able to recharge the batteries when you run out of charge, given enough time sitting in daylight, and then continue your journey. For example, the PV cells on something like the Fisker Karma don't do much except add a cool/green factor. They generate enough power to run a small fan that keeps the cabin cool when parked in the sun. You might find yourself traveling for your EV's range of 400 miles or so, then sitting for days (or longer with bad weather) waiting for enough charge to keep going.

If time wasn't a factor, then I suppose you could do it.

Someday, I hope that PV cells will be able to generate enough power to be viable for "normal" people, but that day isn't here yet.

Edited September 24, 2012 by monkeylizard

[nightrunner]

The leaf only has a range of about 120-150 miles best case scenario. I believe it is only 90 on the highway though.

At this point electric powered vehicles are still impractical

[monkeylizard]

Oh, right. I was thinking of something like the Volt with the gas-powered generator engine. I forgot the Leaf's range. Still, I suppose that if you had all the time in the world to wait between your 100 mile jaunts, you could rig some PVs up to charge the batteries.

There are some experimental EVs that run on solar for longer distances, but those are for academic/research purposes and wouldn't work as any sort of practical vehicle.

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/1000/longest-journey-by-solar-electric-vehicle

Here are some specs on the car:

http://www.uwmidsun.com/midnight-sun-x

Edited September 24, 2012 by monkeylizard

[mikegideon]

That's a whole lotta car for one person. You just need to store enough fuel to get to your bugout location if buggin' out is your plan. Can't beat gasoline for lots of energy in a small package.

[Makiaveli]

I think a flex-fuel vehicle would be the most practical "alternative" option at this point. Though my dream vehicle is something like a M35

[Raoul]

Unless of course there was an EMP.

[mikegideon]

Unless of course there was an EMP.

Then, fire up the '62 Impala.

[Murgatroy]

The problem with EVs is that battery technology isn't there. It should be, but it isn't.

Most EVs have less than 200 mile range, and off of a solar panel setup they would take nearly a week to recharge.

However, for skirmish/raiding tactics, that would be perfect in a PAW.

EVs and Diesel are two viable options, as producing your own vegetable oil would be slightly easier (though less fun) that producing alcohol for your gas burner.

[Guest HvyMtl]

Does size matter? Electric cars are smaller. Does going off road matter? Many roads will be blocked. Does load size matter? Electric vehicles' range are cut far more dramatically with extra weight. If you are going electric as a bug out, where do you expect to get the electricity to recharge? I expect all utilities would go off line within weeks of the outbreak.

[runco]

Could you strap a Honda EU2000 generater to the roof and run for ever or at least 8 hours whichever comes first, that is how long he Honda generator will run under load!

[Guest Lester Weevils]

As far as bug-out offroad vehicle, just blue-sky thinking-- Maybe an electric ATV with lots of gears in the gearbox? Or a continuous-variable transmission as seen on some recent autos? Made with lots of carbon fiber and titanium for weight considerations? Maybe a little "cab style tiny pickup truck" ATV similar to a John Deere Gator could be a compromise between size and carrying capacity?

Thin-film roll-up panels might be a possibility. Maybe some of the current roll-up panels are mere novelties, but think have seen some (presumably pretty tough) that are marketed toward customers such as sailing yacht folk. Roll em out on deck when the weather is cooperative but otherwise if you need to walk the whole deck or in bad weather, roll em up and stow em. They keep talking about nano particle PV paint you can put on anything. Companies have demonstrated it working but dunno if anybody sells it yet. Or ever will. EPA will probably decide it is bad for the environment or whatever.

Just thinking maybe you could carry a large square footage of roll-out panels and roll it out on the ground to generate enough amps to be back on yer way in just a day or two? Maybe tote a good-sized tent made out of roll-out panels? Usually a survivalist might tote minimal tent to save on weight, but if you want to keep the roll-out panels off the ground and protect em from damage, maybe it wouldn't be brain-dead stupid to tote em configured as a rather large tent or at least a rather large portable awning. Maybe a big solar awning and then a little lightweight tent to go under the big awning? Or pitch the awning over yer vehicle and sleep in the vehicle if its big enough?

Hmmm, maybe a small light weight 4WD van-shaped boxy vehicle you could sleep in. Plaster the top with permanently attached PV panels, then mount wide spools of roll-out PV panels on all sides, ala RV roll-out awnings? Park and set up camp to recharge and roll out a big area of solar awning from all four sides of the vehicle, in a big "cross" shape?

If somebody could build a little 2 or 3 foot portable wind turbine out of space-age material, that would disassemble into a compact package, might pay to tote it along, depending on where you would be going. Where I live in S.E. TN we don't get enough wind to bother with home wind generators unless you live smack atop a ridge or have a 100 foot tower. But in localities with steady wind, a small wind turbine generates as much juice as half a house roof covered in PV panels, and lots cheaper too.

If there was enough room to tote a 2KW inverter generator it could come in handy if fuel was available.

Edited October 8, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[monkeylizard]

Could you strap a Honda EU2000 generater to the roof and run for ever or at least 8 hours whichever comes first, that is how long he Honda generator will run under load!

Not really. Assuming the car would allow a charge through the charging port while running (don't know if that's possible or not), the car is using power faster than something like a EU2000 can supply it. My math isn't exact perfect here, but you'll get the idea.

Let's look at the EU2000. It has a max load of 2000w (2KwH) at 16.7 amps. It's rated load is 1600W (1.6KwH) at 13.3 amps. It's also 120V only. It does not have a 220V outlet like the larger (and heavier) EU3000 or EU6500. It has a 4 hour run time at the rated load, not 8 hours. Even less at full load. The longer run times like 8 hours come when you're not working it as hard. At 1/4 load it's supposed to go 9.6 hours. I don't doubt those numbers. My EU6500 lives up to its ratings and run times.

I'll assume the BOV in question is a Nissan Leaf. It has a battery capacity of 22KwH and a max range of 138 miles at 38mph, or about 3.5 hours of drive time. That's assuming the most ideal conditions. We'll ignore the aerodynamic drag of that EU2000 duck taped to the roof. that's an average consumption of 6.28 KwH.

Putting the two together (and assuming we're at 1.6KwH on the genny) gives us close to 14 hours (22KwH/1.6KwH) to fully charge it from "empty". Nissan says it needs a 15 amp load, minimum, but for argument's sake, let's assume the 13.3amps on the genny will still work.

You're going to run through 14 hours of generator (14hours / 4hour run time =3.5 tanks x 1.1 gal capacity = 3.85 gallons of gas) for 3.5 hours of driving to travel 138 miles. It would be easier to have a 40Mpg standard gas car (like a Ford Focus or SkyActive Mazda3) and drive 154 miles on that same amount of fuel. Pretty close to the same distance on same amount of fuel (give or take a little) without having to drive 38 mph and stop every 3.5 hours to camp out for 14 hours to refuel. Better yet, something diesel powered like some VWs (and hopefully a Mazda3 or CX-5 in the next few years) so you can fill it up with other stuff besides pretty fuel from the refinery.

Running the genny while driving would get you further than the 138 miles and 3.5 hours, but not a lot. I don't think the relationship is exactly linear. I'd guess something like a 15-20% boost, but another tank of gas in the genny to get that.

http://www.nissanusa...ctric-car/range

http://powerequipmen.../models/eu2000i

Now if you're looking at something smaller like a Zero X motorcycle, you could charge it in about 1.5 hours with the EU2000, and ride for maybe about an hour on that charge, assuming you're carrying your own weight, your gear, the genny, and some fuel. Besides bugging out, a bike like this is just cool. A motorcycle that sounds like a bicycle.

Edited October 9, 2012 by monkeylizard

[mikegideon]

Good analysis. If you apply the law of convervation of energy, you can simply ask if the motor in the Honda generator will push the car. If the answer is yes (which it isn't), then you can ask if it will push the car with the heat losses in the generator, the electric motor in the car, and other pieces of electronics in the loop. There's no free lunch. It takes so much energy to push the car.

[runco]

Thanks for the debunking. How about this idea then:

http://

[Hershmeister]

I'm going with a full emp proof vehicle

[monkeylizard]

Runco, that's not necessarily the worst idea in the world. A small group of people with those could carry quite a bit of gear and supplies. You could mount "deterents" on any number of those frame bars. The off-road capability would be limited, but that could probably be corrected by a good bicycle mechanic. Adding larger wheels, mountain bike suspension, and different gear ratios would probably do it. Likewiese, it could ber rigged for faster speeds, but on-road only.

It still takes energy, so food would be more of an issue but gasoline/diesel would n't be.

Edited October 9, 2012 by monkeylizard

[RobertNashville]

At least in my opinion, I think the best bug-out vehicle is going to need to be 4 wheel drive with plenty of room to carry you (and your family and pets) and all the supplies you can cram in (food, camping equip, spare fuel, etc.). That said, some sort of SUV and/or pick-up (maybe with a cap) and as reliable as your budget can afford. Since I am concerned about both EMP and overall ease of maintenance, I'm going to say a "pre-compurterized" and pre-fuel injected vehicle along with some replacements parts for they most likely problem areas (hoses, belts, points, plugs, water pump, alternator, etc.).

Just my $0.02

[mikegideon]

4WD is a biggie for me.

[RobertNashville]

Thanks for the debunking. How about this idea then:

Actually, a "human powered" vehicle could be very, very useful...if one is in shape enough to use it.

I used to bicycle 200-300 miles per week and if you do that kind if cycling then using something like you suggest could be a realistic alternative...you might be surprised at how much you can carry and how far you could go in a day.

The only issue I see would be that you would need relatively clear roads to get very far.

[Guest HillyKarma]

Mountain Bike all the way. Or radio flyer wagon. Haven't decided yet.

[Hershmeister]

How about traveling in post apocalyptic style like Isaac Hayes

[Guest Lester Weevils]

You're going to run through 14 hours of generator (14hours / 4hour run time =3.5 tanks x 1.1 gal capacity = 3.85 gallons of gas) for 3.5 hours of driving to travel 138 miles. It would be easier to have a 40Mpg standard gas car (like a Ford Focus or SkyActive Mazda3) and drive 154 miles on that same amount of fuel. Pretty close to the same distance on same amount of fuel (give or take a little) without having to drive 38 mph and stop every 3.5 hours to camp out for 14 hours to refuel. Better yet, something diesel powered like some VWs (and hopefully a Mazda3 or CX-5 in the next few years) so you can fill it up with other stuff besides pretty fuel from the refinery.

Thanks for the good ideas, Monkeylizard. I wasn't expecting that something like a honda 2000 watt inverter generator would run conventional electric autos "real time" but something in that size MIGHT be worth the weight and clutter to tote along with an end-of-the-world electric vehicle. The genny might take 14 hours to charge a leaf, but that would be lots faster than charging a leaf with however many roll-up thin film solar panels you could tote along.

Even with rollup solar panels it would be nice to tote some that are very thin and light indeed (so that a "totably compact" roll could have lots of square feet collector area). Would days to charge a leaf on solar panels. The advantage of being electric would be that if you CAN'T find gas, you could roll out the panels and set up a little portable wind turbine and EVENTUALLY be ready to move on. If there happened to be wind, the wind turbine would supply about the same amps as lots of square feet of solar panel, and would work as good at midnight as at noon. Assuming best case conditions of a good stiff wind, typical little commercial 2.5 or 3 foot wind turbines claim to deliver about 500 watts. Possibly in an optimal wind you could charge the leaf in 56 hours?

Unless you dropped a decimal point somewhere in your calc (I'm not smart enough to second-guess though it looks solid as best I can tell) then it is surprising that charging a Leaf from a Honda 2000i might deliver efficiency as high as (ballpark of) 36 miles per gallon. There are so many conversion steps with thermodynamic losses every step of the way--

[[Generator] Gasoline -> Heat -> Motion -> Alternator -> Inverter] ->

[[Vehicle] -> AC-To-DC Charge Controller -> Battery Electric-to-Chemical losses -> Battery Chemical-to-Electric losses -> Motor Drive Controller -> Motor -> Transmission (if not direct drive) -> A zillion other assorted losses]

Just thinking, if one could get that kind of mileage with all those cumulative thermo losses, makes one wonder why similar sized tiny cars don't get LOTS better mileage than a piddly 40 or 50 MPG? A conventional auto ought not have anywhere near the cumulative thermo losses and theoretically ought to do lots better? One possibility is EPA regs. And possibly extra weight from vehicle safety equipment we could safely ignore? An EOTWAWKI vehicle wouldn't care about pollution standards, so possibly if you build your ArmageddonMobile to ignore all emissions standards then perhaps it could do better? Have read that modern automotive engineers have got real good making strong efficient complicated little engines, but perhaps that kind of engine could be even "better" if the engineers could ignore the EPA?

OTOH, maybe the ArmageddonMobile should be lower-tech and easier to maintain? A friend had a little 1950's vintage Volvo, only slightly bigger than a VW bug. Neat little car. The engine appearance reminded me of a sewing machine and as far as I can recall there wasn't hardly anything in that car that couldn't be repaired with just a pair of pliers and flat screwdriver.

[mcurrier]

2013 Ford C-Max Hybrid

47mpg

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/10/10/quick-spin-2013-ford-c-max-hybrid/?intcmp=features

Get one of these. I will be sh00ting at people driving Prius' sissy cars.

[mikegideon]

I will be sh00ting at people driving Prius' sissy cars.