Carrying in Florida a crime, even with a CCL??

[BravoLima]

"Now the courts are saying that anytime you carry a firearm you are committing a crime.  If you have a concealed carry license, that just gives you an “affirmative defense†to the charges."

"Now, under the Mackey decision, any time you exercise your Second Amendment right you are engaged in presumably criminal activity.

Therefore, you can be stopped, searched, and even arrested for carrying a firearm and then be made to present the “affirmative defense†to a judge that you have a valid concealed carry license."

"THIS CANNOT STAND!

This Mackey case has been appealed to the Florida Supreme Court (SC12-573).  Florida Carry is filing an Amicus Brief on behalf of the law-abiding gun owners of Florida to reverse this dangerous precedent."

Wow, I sure hope our law-abiding gun owner friends in FL can get this reversed. In a nut shell, FL is saying you have the right to 2nd ammemdment, and the right to conceal carry if properly licensed, but if you do you are presumably involved in criminal activity and can be stopped, searched, arrested and then prove to the judge you have a CCL. What? Really?

It's late and I'm spent for the day, but unless I'm misunderstanding this article, I see this causing some significant problems.

http://www.ammoland.com/2012/09/18/fl-supreme-court-to-decide-is-carrying-a-gun-a-crime-even-with-a-carry-license/#

[Dolomite_supafly]

That is the law here as well.

Every single person who carries a firearm in TN, including HCP and even LE, are breaking the law. It is just a defense to breaking that law if you have a HCP or a job authorizing you to carry.

Dolomite

[Guest 6.8 AR]

That depends on how you are interpreting something. If you are presumed to be actively engaged in a criminal activity,

you are breaking the law. Not because you are carrying a gun. If you have the permit, and are not engaged in a criminal

activity, what's the problem? I know, just yakking. It's that presumption thing.

Are all courts saying that? Or is this an activist judge antigunner? Sounds like it. Anyway, it will be heard by a higher court.

No argument from me, but, how many people are arrested because of this? I'ts a perverted means to an end. I have to

admit, it makes no sense when the language could have been more straightforward. Laws written in plain english. without

the legalese are easier to interpret, and are usually more definitive.

This does make the case for Constitutional carry, doesn't it?

[BravoLima]

That is the law here as well.

Every single person who carries a firearm in TN, including HCP and even LE, are breaking the law. It is just a defense to breaking that law if you have a HCP or a job authorizing you to carry.

Dolomite

I see what you are saying. But it sounds like in FL an officer can stop you, search you, etc automatically assuming you are engaging in criminal activity simply because you are carrying. In TN doesn't an officer have to have some reasonable suspicion before stopping you and searching you just because you are carrying?

[Guest 6.8 AR]

That's what I got out of the article, also. But, is it a problem waiting to be hatched, or does someone want more money?

I don't know.

[TMF]

In TN doesn't an officer have to have some reasonable suspicion before stopping you and searching you just because you are carrying?

If he sees that you are carrying a weapon, absolutely he can stop you and inquire about the weapon. Since it is a crime to carry, if an officer observes you carrying then he has PC. Of course, the encounters I've heard of the cop always asks if the individual has a permit, which is the end of the issue unless the cop wants to disarm him (which is BS and should be addressed with the department when that happens).

[Dolomite_supafly]

In TN doesn't an officer have to have some reasonable suspicion before stopping you and searching you just because you are carrying?

No. An officer in Tennessee can stop, and investigate, you for carrying a firearm because you ARE breaking the law when you have a firearm on your person. You do not need to be engaged in any other illegal activity for an officer to investigate. It is in the defense that mandates you cannot be charged for the crime

The law in Florida sounds exactly like the law here in Tennessee.

Here is the Tennessee Law:

Title 39 Criminal Offenses

Chapter 17 Offenses Against Public Health, Safety and Welfare

Part 13 Weapons

Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1307 (2012)

39-17-1307. Unlawful carrying or possession of a weapon.

(a) (1) A person commits an offense who carries with the intent to go armed a firearm, a knife with a blade length exceeding four inches (4''), or a club.

And that applies to everyone in Tennessee without regard to their job, HCP status or where they are. Carrying a firearm on your own property as well as in your own home is also against the law. But the defense, below, make it so that you cannot be prosecuted for it.

And here are the defenses:

Title 39 Criminal Offenses

Chapter 17 Offenses Against Public Health, Safety and Welfare

Part 13 Weapons

Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1308 (2012)

39-17-1308. Defenses to unlawful possession or carrying of a weapon.

(a) It is a defense to the application of § 39-17-1307 if the possession or carrying was:

(1) Of an unloaded rifle, shotgun or handgun not concealed on or about the person and the ammunition for the weapon was not in the immediate vicinity of the person or weapon;

(2) By a person authorized to possess or carry a firearm pursuant to § 39-17-1315 or § 39-17-1351;

(3) At the person's:

(A) Place of residence;

(B ) Place of business; or

© Premises;

(4) Incident to lawful hunting, trapping, fishing, camping, sport shooting or other lawful activity;

(5) By a person possessing a rifle or shotgun while engaged in the lawful protection of livestock from predatory animals;

(6) By a Tennessee valley authority officer who holds a valid commission from the commissioner of safety pursuant to this part while the officer is in the performance of the officer's official duties;

(7) By a state, county or municipal judge or any federal judge or any federal or county magistrate;

(8) By a person possessing a club or baton who holds a valid state security guard/officer registration card as a private security guard/officer, issued by the commissioner, and who also has certification that the officer has had training in the use of club or baton that is valid and issued by a person certified to give training in the use of clubs or batons;

(9) By any person possessing a club or baton who holds a certificate that the person has had training in the use of a club or baton for self-defense that is valid and issued by a certified person authorized to give training in the use of clubs or batons, and is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm under any local, state or federal laws; or

(10) By any out-of-state, full-time, commissioned law enforcement officer who holds a valid commission card from the appropriate out-of-state law enforcement agency and a photo identification; provided, that if no valid commission card and photo identification are retained, then it shall be unlawful for that officer to carry firearms in this state and the provisions of this section shall not apply. The defense provided by this subdivision (a)(10) shall only be applicable if the state where the out-of-state officer is employed has entered into a reciprocity agreement with this state that allows a full-time, commissioned law enforcement officer in Tennessee to lawfully carry or possess a weapon in the other state.

( The defenses described in this section are not available to persons described in § 39-17-1307((1).



And here is the 1315 which relates to the defense of being a duly sworn officers:

Title 39 Criminal Offenses

Chapter 17 Offenses Against Public Health, Safety and Welfare

Part 13 Weapons

Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1315 (2012)

39-17-1315. Written directive and permit to carry handguns.

(a) (1) Any law enforcement officer, police officer, bonded and sworn deputy sheriff, director, commissioner, county magistrate or retired law enforcement officer who is bonded and who, at the time of receiving the written directive, has successfully completed and, except for a law enforcement officer who has retired in good standing as certified by the chief law enforcement officer of the organization from which the officer retired, continues to successfully complete on an annual basis a firearm training program of at least eight (8) hours duration, director or full-time employee of the Tennessee emergency management agency in the performance of the director's or employee's duty, any duly authorized representative or full-time employee of the board of probation and parole who has been specifically designated by the board to execute warrants issued pursuant to § 40-28-121 or § 40-35-311 or to perform such other duties as specifically designated by the board, or any other officer or person authorized to carry handguns by this, or any other law of this state, may carry handguns at all times pursuant to a written directive by the executive supervisor of the organization to which the person is or was attached or employed, regardless of the person's regular duty hours or assignments; however, a copy of the written directive shall be retained as a portion of the records of the particular law enforcement agency that shall issue the directive. Nothing in this subdivision (a)(1) shall prevent federal officers from carrying firearms as prescribed by federal law.

(2) Any duly elected and sworn constable in any county having a population of not less than eleven thousand one hundred (11,100) nor more than eleven thousand two hundred (11,200), according to the 1970 federal census or any subsequent federal census, and being a county in which constables retain law enforcement powers and duties under the provisions of §§ 8-10-108, 40-6-210, 55-8-152, 57-5-202 and 57-9-101, are authorized to and may carry handguns at all times and may equip their vehicles with blue and red lights and sirens. The sheriff of such county shall issue a written directive or permit authorizing the constables to carry a handgun; provided, that each constable has completed the same eight-hour annual firearm training program as is required by this subsection (a).

(3) The county commission may, by a two-thirds (2/3) vote, require the constable to have in effect a liability policy or a corporate surety bond in an amount of not less than fifty thousand dollars ($50,000).

( B ) (1) An individual, corporation or business entity is authorized to prohibit the possession of weapons by employees otherwise authorized by this subsection ( B ) on premises owned, operated or managed by the individual, corporation or business entity. Notice of the prohibition shall be posted or otherwise noticed to all affected employees.

(2) An individual, corporation, business entity or governmental entity or agent thereof is authorized to prohibit possession of weapons by any person otherwise authorized by this subsection ( B ), at meetings conducted by, or on premises owned, operated, managed or under control of the individual, corporation, business entity or governmental entity. Notice of the prohibition shall be posted or announced.

And 1351 pertaining to the defense of HCP holders:

Title 39 Criminal Offenses

Chapter 17 Offenses Against Public Health, Safety and Welfare

Part 13 Weapons

Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1351 (2012)

39-17-1351. Handgun carry permits.

(a) The citizens of this state have a right to keep and bear arms for their common defense; but the general assembly has the power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime.

( B ) Except as provided in subsection ®, any resident of Tennessee who is a United States citizen or permanent lawful resident, as defined by § 55-50-102, who has reached twenty-one (21) years of age, may apply to the department of safety for a handgun carry permit. If the applicant is not prohibited from purchasing or possessing a firearm in this state pursuant to § 39-17-1316 or § 39-17-1307( B ), 18 U.S.C. § 922(g), or any other state or federal law, and the applicant otherwise meets all of the requirements of this section, the department shall issue a permit to the applicant.

© The application for a permit shall be on a standard form developed by the department. The application shall clearly state in bold face type directly above the signature line that an applicant who, with intent to deceive, makes any false statement on the application commits the felony offense of perjury pursuant to § 39-16-702. The following are eligibility requirements for obtaining a handgun carry permit and the application shall require the applicant to disclose and confirm compliance with, under oath, the following information concerning the applicant and the eligibility requirements:

(1) Full legal name and any aliases;

(2) Addresses for the last five (5) years;

(3) Date of birth;

(4) Social security number;

(5) Physical description (height, weight, race, sex, hair color and eye color);

(6) That the applicant has not been convicted of a criminal offense that is designated as a felony, or that is one of the disqualifying misdemeanors set out in subdivisions ©(11), ©(16), or ©(18), with the exception of any federal or state offenses pertaining to antitrust violations, unfair trade practices, restraints of trade or other similar offenses relating to the regulations of business practices;

(7) That the applicant is not currently under indictment or information for any criminal offense that is designated as a felony, or that is one of the disqualifying misdemeanors set out in subdivisions ©(11), ©(16), or ©(18), with the exception of any federal or state offenses pertaining to antitrust violations, unfair trade practices, restraints of trade or other similar offenses relating to the regulations of business practices;

(8) That the applicant is not currently subject to any order of protection and, if so, the applicant shall provide a copy of the order;

(9) That the applicant is not a fugitive from justice;

(10) That the applicant is not an unlawful user of or addicted to alcohol or any controlled substance and the applicant has not been a patient in a rehabilitation program or hospitalized for alcohol or controlled substance abuse or addiction within ten (10) years from the date of application;

(11) That the applicant has not been convicted of the offense of driving under the influence of an intoxicant in this or any other state two (2) or more times within ten (10) years from the date of the application and that none of the convictions has occurred within five (5) years from the date of application or renewal;

(12) That the applicant has not been adjudicated as a mental defective, has not been judicially committed to or hospitalized in a mental institution pursuant to title 33, has not had a court appoint a conservator for the applicant by reason of a mental defect, has not been judicially determined to be disabled by reason of mental illness, developmental disability or other mental incapacity, and has not, within seven (7) years from the date of application, been found by a court to pose an immediate substantial likelihood of serious harm, as defined in title 33, chapter 6, part 5, because of mental illness;

(13) That the applicant is not an alien and is not illegally or unlawfully in the United States;

(14) That the applicant has not been discharged from the armed forces under dishonorable conditions;

(15) That the applicant has not renounced the applicant's United States citizenship;

(16) That the applicant has not been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence as defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(33);

(17) That the applicant is not receiving social security disability benefits by reason of alcohol dependence, drug dependence or mental disability; and

(18) That the applicant has not been convicted of the offense of stalking.

(d ) (1) In addition to the information required under subsection ©, the applicant shall be required to provide two (2) full sets of classifiable fingerprints at the time the application is filed with the department. The applicant's fingerprints may be taken by the department at the time the application is submitted or the applicant may have the fingerprints taken at any sheriff's office and submit the fingerprints to the department along with the application and other supporting documents. The sheriff may charge a fee not to exceed five dollars ($5.00) for taking the applicant's fingerprints. At the time an applicant's fingerprints are taken either by the department or a sheriff's office, the applicant shall be required to present a photo identification. If the person requesting fingerprinting is not the same person as the person whose picture appears on the photo identification, the department or sheriff shall refuse to take the fingerprints. The department shall also be required to photograph the applicant in a manner that is suitable for use on the permit.

(2) An applicant shall also be required to present a photo identification to the department at the time of filing the application. If the name on the photo identification, name on the application and name on the fingerprint card, if taken by a sheriff, are not the same, the department shall refuse to accept the application. If the person whose picture appears on the photo identification is not the same as the applicant, the department shall refuse to accept the application.

(e) The department shall also require an applicant to submit proof of the successful completion of a department approved handgun safety course. Any form created by the department to show proof of the successful completion of a department approved handgun safety course shall not require the applicant to provide the applicant's social security number. Any instructor of a department approved handgun safety course shall not withhold proof of the successful completion of the course solely on the fact the applicant did not disclose the applicant's social security number. The course shall include both classroom hours and firing range hours. Beginning September 1, 2010, and thereafter, a component of the classroom portion of all department-approved handgun safety courses shall be instruction on alcohol and drugs, the effects of those substances on a person's reflexes, judgment and ability to safely handle a firearm, and the provisions of § 39-17-1321. An applicant shall not be required to comply with the firing range and classroom hours requirements of this subsection (e) if the applicant submits proof to the department that within five (5) years from the date the application for a handgun carry permit is filed the applicant has:

(1) Been certified by the peace officer standards and training commission;

(2) Successfully completed training at the law enforcement training academy;

(3) Successfully completed the firearms training course required for armed security guard/officer registration, pursuant to § 62-35-118( B ); or

(4) Successfully completed all handgun training of not less than four (4) hours as required by any branch of the military.

(f) The department shall make applications for permits available for distribution at any location where the department conducts driver license examinations.

(g) (1) Upon receipt of a permit application, the department shall:

(A) Forward two (2) full sets of fingerprints of the applicant to the Tennessee bureau of investigation; and

( B ) Send a copy of the application to the sheriff of the county in which the applicant resides.

(2) Within thirty (30) days of receiving an application, the sheriff shall provide the department with any information concerning the truthfulness of the applicant's answers to the eligibility requirements of subsection © that is within the knowledge of the sheriff.

(h) Upon receipt of the fingerprints from the department, the Tennessee bureau of investigation shall:

(1) Within thirty (30) days from receipt of the fingerprints, conduct computer searches to determine the applicant's eligibility for a permit under subsection © as are available to the bureau based solely upon the applicant's name, date of birth and social security number and send the results of the searches to the department;

(2) Conduct a criminal history record check based upon one (1) set of the fingerprints received and send the results to the department; and

(3) Send one (1) set of the fingerprints received from the department to the federal bureau of investigation, request a federal criminal history record check based upon the fingerprints, as long as the service is available, and send the results of the check to the department.

(i) The department shall deny a permit application if it determines from information contained in the criminal history record checks conducted by the Tennessee and federal bureaus of investigation pursuant to subsection (h), from information received from the clerks of court regarding individuals adjudicated as a mental defective or judicially committed to a mental institution pursuant to title 33, or from other information that comes to the attention of the department, that the applicant does not meet the eligibility requirements of this section. The department shall not be required to confirm the applicant's eligibility for a permit beyond the information received from the Tennessee and federal bureaus of investigation, the clerks of court and the sheriffs, if any.

(j) The department shall not deny a permit application if:

(1) The existence of any arrest or other records concerning the applicant for any indictment, charge or warrant have been judicially or administratively expunged; or

(2) An applicant's conviction has been set aside by a court of competent jurisdiction; or

(3) The applicant, who was rendered infamous or deprived of the rights of citizenship by judgment of any state or federal court, has had the applicant's full rights of citizenship duly restored pursuant to procedures set forth within title 40, chapter 29, or other federal or state law; provided, however, that the provisions of this subdivision (j)(3) shall not apply to any person who has been convicted of burglary, any felony offense involving violence or use of a firearm or any felony drug offense involving a Schedule I, II, III, IV or V controlled substance. If the applicant has been convicted of a felony drug offense involving a Schedule VI controlled substance, the provisions of this subdivision (j)(3) shall not apply if the offense occurred within ten (10) years of the date of application or renewal.

(k) If the department denies an application, the department shall notify the applicant in writing within ten (10) days of the denial. The written notice shall state the specific factual basis for the denial. It shall include a copy of any reports, records or inquiries reviewed or relied upon by the department.

(l) The department shall issue a permit to an applicant not prohibited from obtaining a permit under this section no later than ninety (90) days after the date the department receives the application. A permit issued prior to the department's receipt of the Tennessee and federal bureaus of investigation's criminal history record checks based upon the applicant's fingerprints shall be subject to immediate revocation if either record check reveals that the applicant is not eligible for a permit pursuant to the provisions of this section.

(m) A permit holder shall not be required to complete a handgun safety course to maintain or renew a handgun carry permit. No permit holder shall be required to complete any additional handgun safety course after obtaining a handgun carry permit. No person shall be required to complete any additional handgun safety course if the person applies for a renewal of a handgun carry permit within six (6) months from the date of expiration.

(n) (1) Except as provided in subdivision (n)(2), a permit issued pursuant to this section shall be good for four (4) years and shall entitle the permit holder to carry any handgun or handguns that the permit holder legally owns or possesses. The permit holder shall have the permit in the holder's immediate possession at all times when carrying a handgun and shall display the permit on demand of a law enforcement officer.

(2) A Tennessee permit issued pursuant to this section to a person who is in or who enters into the United States armed forces shall continue in effect for so long as the person's service continues and the person is stationed outside this state, notwithstanding the fact that the person may be temporarily in this state on furlough, leave, or delay en route, and for a period not to exceed sixty (60) days following the date on which the person is honorably discharged or separated from service or returns to this state on reassignment to a duty station in this state, unless the permit is sooner suspended, cancelled or revoked for cause as provided by law. The permit is valid only when in the immediate possession of the permit holder and the permit holder has in the holder's immediate possession the holder's discharge or separation papers, if the permit holder has been discharged or separated from the service.

(o) The permit shall be issued on a wallet-sized laminated card of the same approximate size as is used by the state of Tennessee for driver licenses and shall contain only the following information concerning the permit holder:

(1) The permit holder's name, address and date of birth;

(2) A description of the permit holder by sex, height, weight and eye color;

(3) A color photograph of the permit holder; and

(4) The permit number and expiration date.

(p) (1) The department shall charge an application and processing fee of one hundred fifteen dollars ($115). The fee shall cover all aspects of processing the application and issuing a permit. In addition to any other portion of the permit application fee that goes to the Tennessee bureau of investigation, fifteen dollars ($15.00) of the fee shall go to the bureau for the sole purpose of updating and maintaining its fingerprint criminal history data base. On an annual basis, the comptroller of the treasury shall audit the bureau to ensure that the extra fifteen dollars ($15.00) received from each handgun permit application fee is being used exclusively for the purpose set forth in this subsection (p). By February 1 of each year the bureau shall provide documentation to the judiciary committees of the senate and house of representatives that the extra fifteen dollars ($15.00) is being used exclusively for the intended purposes. The documentation shall state in detail how the money earmarked for fingerprint data base updating and maintenance was spent, the number and job descriptions of any employees hired and the type and purpose of any equipment purchased.

(2) The provisions of subdivision (p)(1) increasing each permit application fee by fifteen dollars ($15.00) for the purpose of fingerprint data base updating and maintenance shall not take effect if the general appropriation act provides a specific appropriation in the amount of two hundred fifty thousand dollars ($250,000), to defray the expenses contemplated in subdivision (p)(1). If the appropriation is not included in the general appropriations act, the fifteen dollar ($15.00) permit fee increase imposed by subdivision (p)(1) shall take effect on July 1, 1997, the public welfare requiring it.

(3) Beginning July 1, 2008, fifteen dollars ($15.00) of the fee established in subdivision (p)(1) shall be submitted to the sheriff of the county where the applicant resides for the purpose of verifying the truthfulness of the applicant's answers as provided in subdivision (g)(1).

(q) (1) Prior to the expiration of a permit, a permit holder may apply to the department for the renewal of the permit by submitting, under oath, a renewal application with a renewal fee of fifty dollars ($50.00). The renewal application shall be on a standard form developed by the department of safety and shall require the applicant to disclose, under oath, the information concerning the applicant as set forth in subsection ©, and shall require the applicant to certify that the applicant still satisfies all the eligibility requirements of this section for the issuance of a permit. In the event the permit expires prior to the department's approval or issuance of notice of denial regarding the renewal application, the permit holder shall be entitled to continue to use the expired permit; provided, however, that the permit holder shall also be required to prove by displaying a receipt for the renewal application fee that the renewal application was delivered to the department prior to the expiration date of the permit.

(2) Any person whose handgun carry permit expires and who applies for a renewal of the handgun carry permit within six (6) months from the date of expiration shall only be required to comply with the renewal provisions of subdivision (q)(1). If the renewal application is filed six (6) months or more from the date of expiration, the person shall, for all purposes, be considered a new applicant.

(3) If a person whose handgun carry permit remained valid pursuant to subdivision (n)(2) because the person was in the United States armed forces applies for a renewal of the permit within six (6) months of the expiration of the sixty (60) day period following discharge, separation, or return to this state on reassignment to a duty station in this state as provided in subdivision (n)(2), the person shall only be required to comply with the renewal provisions of subdivision (q)(1). If the renewal application is filed six (6) months or more from expiration of the sixty (60) day period following the date of honorable discharge, separation, or return to this state on reassignment to a duty station in this state, the person shall, for all purposes, be considered a new applicant.

® (1) A facially valid handgun permit, firearms permit, weapons permit or license issued by another state shall be valid in this state according to its terms and shall be treated as if it is a handgun permit issued by this state; provided, however, the provisions of this subsection ® shall not be construed to authorize the holder of any out-of-state permit or license to carry, in this state, any firearm or weapon other than a handgun.

(2) For a person to lawfully carry a handgun in this state based upon a permit or license issued in another state, the person must be in possession of the permit or license at all times the person carries a handgun in this state.

(3) (A) The commissioner of safety shall enter into written reciprocity agreements with other states that require the execution of the agreements. The commissioner of safety shall prepare and publicly publish a current list of states honoring permits issued by the state of Tennessee and shall make the list available to anyone upon request. The commissioner of safety shall also prepare and publicly publish a current list of states who, after inquiry by the commissioner, refuse to enter into a reciprocity agreement with this state or honor handgun carry permits issued by this state. To the extent that any state may impose conditions in the reciprocity agreements, the commissioner of safety shall publish those conditions as part of the list. If another state imposes conditions on Tennessee permit holders in a reciprocity agreement, the conditions shall also become a part of the agreement and apply to the other state's permit holders when they carry a handgun in this state.

( B ) If a person with a handgun permit from another state decides to become a resident of Tennessee, the person must obtain a Tennessee handgun permit within six (6) months of establishing residency in Tennessee. The permit may be issued based on the person having a permit from another state provided the other state has substantially similar permit eligibility requirements as this state. However, if during the six-month period the person applies for a handgun permit in this state and the application is denied, the person shall not be allowed to carry a handgun in this state based upon the other state's permit.

© (i) If a person who is a resident of and handgun permit holder in another state is employed in this state on a regular basis and desires to carry a handgun in this state, the person shall have six (6) months from the last day of the sixth month of regular employment in this state to obtain a Tennessee handgun carry permit. The permit may be issued based on the person having a permit from another state provided the other state has substantially similar permit eligibility requirements as this state. However, if during the six-month period the person applies for a handgun permit in this state and the application is denied, the person shall not be allowed to carry a handgun in this state based upon the other state's permit.

(ii) The provisions of this subdivision ®(3)© shall not apply if the state of residence of the person employed in Tennessee has entered into a handgun permit reciprocity agreement with this state pursuant to this subsection ®.

(iii) As used in this subdivision ®(3)©, "employed in this state on a regular basis" means a person has been gainfully employed in this state for at least thirty (30) hours a week for six (6) consecutive months not counting any absence from employment caused by the employee's use of sick leave, annual leave, administrative leave or compensatory time.

(s) (1) The department shall make available, on request and payment of a reasonable fee to cover the costs of copying, a statistical report that includes the number of permits issued, denied, revoked, or suspended by the department during the preceding month, listed by age, gender and zip code of the applicant or permit holder and the reason for any permit revocation or suspension. The report shall also include the cost of the program, the revenues derived from fees, the number of violations of the provisions of the handgun carry permit law, and the average time for issuance of a handgun carry permit. By January 1 of each year, a copy of the statistical reports for the preceding calendar year shall be provided to each member of the general assembly.

(2) (A) The department shall maintain statistics related to responses by law enforcement agencies to incidents in which a person who has a permit to carry a handgun under this section is arrested and booked for any offense.

( B ) The department by rule promulgated pursuant to the Uniform Administrative Procedures Act, compiled in title 4, chapter 5 shall adopt procedures for state and local law enforcement officials to report the information required by subdivision (s)(2)(A) to the department.

(t) Any law enforcement officer of this state or of any county or municipality may, within the realm of the officer's lawful jurisdiction and when the officer is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's official duties, disarm a permit holder at any time when the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the permit holder, officer or other individual or individuals. The officer shall return the handgun to the permit holder before discharging the permit holder from the scene when the officer has determined that the permit holder is not a threat to the officer, to the permit holder, or other individual or individuals provided that the permit holder has not violated any provision of this section and provided the permit holder has not committed any other violation that results in the arrest of the permit holder.

(u) Substantial compliance with the requirements of this section shall provide the department and any political subdivision thereof with immunity from civil liability alleging liability for issuance of the permit.

(v) Any permit issued pursuant to this section shall be deemed a "license" within the meaning of title 36, chapter 5, part 7, dealing with the enforcement of child support obligations through license denial and revocation.

(w) (1) Notwithstanding any other law or rule to the contrary, neither the department nor an instructor or employee of a department approved handgun safety course is authorized to require any applicant for a handgun carry permit to furnish or reveal identifying information concerning any handgun the applicant owns, possesses or uses during the safety course in order to apply for or be issued the permit.

(2) For purposes of subdivision (w)(1), "identifying information concerning any handgun" includes, but is not limited to, the serial number, model number, make of gun or manufacturer, type of gun, such as revolver or semi-automatic, caliber or whether the applicant owns the handgun used for the safety course.

Dolomite

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Like I said earlier, whether it is a defense of a law, or whether it is an explanation of the criminality in the law, are you

a criminal in the state of TN if you choose to go to the class, pay the fees and get the permit? How are you breaking

the law if you aren't breaking the law. Granted, it is clumsy and should be changed to much simpler language, so we

wouldn't have these discussions. What I understand about this is pretty much limited, my not having a law degree, but

I don't know about this, but I suspect it has something to do with maintaining the criminality. Keeping their options

open, which is ridiculous, but it's there for some odd reason.

Something about this whole argument is absurd to me. You either have the blessing of the state, or you don't. If it

is truly a cake or death proposition, that whole set of laws in our state needs to be nullified and begun again.

This is why I usually stay out of these discussions. I don't really know what my ass looks like, but my proctologist

does and, on occasion, he has to tell me what it looks like down there.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

If he sees that you are carrying a weapon, absolutely he can stop you and inquire about the weapon. Since it is a crime to carry, if an officer observes you carrying then he has PC. Of course, the encounters I've heard of the cop always asks if the individual has a permit, which is the end of the issue unless the cop wants to disarm him (which is BS and should be addressed with the department when that happens).

That's the way I understand it, also.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

When they started this process, they had to have a reason for the law. It looks like they chose the path to

criminality, due to crime being the reason the law was perceived to be necessary. In defense of a law is an

exception to it's criminality, and doesn't make you a criminal, since you are excluded as a group, until you

make an opportunity to become a criminal.

I don't see how that makes one a criminal, except by explicit action to cause criminality.

I think we're splitting hairs.

[Glenn]

Sounds to me like the difference is florida is saying you will be arrested and have to show the permit to the judge. In tennessee, it seems that showing your permit to the LE officer is the end of it.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I think the criminal part of it (intent to go armed/weapons possession) was there first. So rather than go back and repeal it then reinstate a different law it was just easier to add the defenses.

Can you imagine if they did away with the law then it took a few weeks for the new law to pass and take affect. It would be a major cluster as people were being arrested for a crime that was not a crime at the time they were arrested. It would open jurisdictions up to lawsuits for false arrest as well as let actual criminals walk.

I have ZERO complaints with how it is right now, either in wording or in practice by LE.

Dolomite

[TMF]

Sounds to me like the difference is florida is saying you will be arrested and have to show the permit to the judge. In tennessee, it seems that showing your permit to the LE officer is the end of it.

Technically it seems that you could do that in TN as well. Probably the reason it doesn't happen is because an officer would lose his job after getting his peepee spanked by the judge for being an incompetent boob. I assume it will be the same in Florida. This isn't going to suddenly make all LEOs in FL put on stupid caps and start rolling up people that are legally carrying.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Sounds to me like the difference is florida is saying you will be arrested and have to show the permit to the judge. In tennessee, it seems that showing your permit to the LE officer is the end of it.

That is not a requirement as far as what all I have read, which makes it a courtesy.

Officers are not there to determine guilt or innocense they just act as a reporting agency. Officers here in Tennessee could probably arrest you for the weapons possession then let you go to court and prove you have a valid reason for carrying a weapon. Most officers realize that would be an injustice and add to the burdens already placed on the court system so they do not do that. It would also open them to criticisms for their actions and possible lawsuits.

I have known officers who would say let the courts figure out if they are innocent or guilty. They were few and far between but they are out there.

Dolomite

[BravoLima]

@Dolomite,

I understand better now. It's funny, I've read all of that before, but just haven't let it sink in that it's illegal for me to carry, BUT I have a valid defense as long as I have my HCP. I looked at it as if it WOULD be illegal, but it's not for me as a HCP holder. what you're saying makes more sense to me now. I think it's bizarre that it's worded that way, I'm sure there are academic reasons.

I also was getting hung up on the "search" part in FL. They can search you just for having a weapon. I didn't think in TN they could search you just for having one. Of course I understand them having the authority to approach you and inquire about your carry status, maybe check your permit, but I just a figured that beyond that, they would need further cause to search me. But since I'm technically breaking the law, I guess they automatically have cause. Never thought of like that.

So this new perspective makes me beg the question, is there such a thing as "legal carry" in TN or is it technically more correct to say you have a legal defense to carry illegally. LOL By the way, I appreciate the the effort you made by pasting in all the related TCA. Thanks for the lesson. My HGC permit instructor surely could have gone more in depth on this particular subject.

Cheers,

BravoLima

[williamsburg]

I think the criminal part of it (intent to go armed/weapons possession) was there first. So rather than go back and repeal it then reinstate a different law it was just easier to add the defenses.

Can you imagine if they did away with the law then it took a few weeks for the new law to pass and take affect. It would be a major cluster as people were being arrested for a crime that was not a crime at the time they were arrested. It would open jurisdictions up to lawsuits for false arrest as well as let actual criminals walk.

I have ZERO complaints with how it is right now, either in wording or in practice by LE.

Dolomite

This makes total sense. Why change something so simple and open a can of worms that has long been sealed. There are laws on the books to protect us with an HCP. That's good enough in my opinion. They have to have something in the books in black and white to go on when they encounter the individuals carrying/possessing without an HCP (mainly those who cannot get one) in the legal system.

It's just checks and balances in the system. Sometimes it's not easily understood, but it's there anyway.

[JayC]

Sounds to me like the difference is florida is saying you will be arrested and have to show the permit to the judge. In tennessee, it seems that showing your permit to the LE officer is the end of it.

Only because the officer in TN doesn't want to arrest you and do all the paperwork to have a judge later release you... much like in FL... but make no mistake, they could do the exact same thing here to any HCP just because they want to.

[JayC]

I think the criminal part of it (intent to go armed/weapons possession) was there first. So rather than go back and repeal it then reinstate a different law it was just easier to add the defenses.

Can you imagine if they did away with the law then it took a few weeks for the new law to pass and take affect. It would be a major cluster as people were being arrested for a crime that was not a crime at the time they were arrested. It would open jurisdictions up to lawsuits for false arrest as well as let actual criminals walk.

I have ZERO complaints with how it is right now, either in wording or in practice by LE.

Dolomite

It would have been just as easy to use the word EXCEPTION instead of defense... Making the activity legal out right instead of making it an affirmative defense in a court of law.

We could get this changed without any serious re-writing of the law by changing the word defense to exception in a few key spots.

[Clod Stomper]

From what I have read on this forum, the officer's job and his commission is a defense to carrying a firearm just the same as my having a HCP is. So then, what is to stop me from making a citizen's arrest? Or calling a federal LE to arrest him and have him present his defense in court? Absurd, right?

So it is just as absurd that he could do the same to a citizen. This absurdity needs to end.

It really wouldn't be that complicated to change. Going through the law striking this, adding that, blah, blah, legalese can be done in one single bill. Or, as JayC said above simply changing the word "defense" to "exception" would work. If one want to really make it complicated, make the new law contingent on and effective as of the date of the repeal of the old law. This happens all the time.

Ultimately, the best solution is Constitutional carry. I don't need a Permit to act as a defense to an act which is a RIGHT. And make no mistake, it is a RIGHT, no matter what state, local or federal law says. Bearing arms is a right in New York City, Chicago, and Los Angeles as much as it is in Arizona, Vermont and Alaska. Just because a government infringes on a right makes it no less a right.

Will

Edited September 19, 2012 by Clod Stomper

[mikegideon]

It would have been just as easy to use the word EXCEPTION instead of defense... Making the activity legal out right instead of making it an affirmative defense in a court of law.

We could get this changed without any serious re-writing of the law by changing the word defense to exception in a few key spots.

I suppose they could. Let's don't forget our douchebag friend Voldemort, that sued just because they detained him.

[JayC]

I suppose they could. Let's don't forget our douchebag friend Voldemort, that sued just because they detained him.

Law don't stop said douchebags from trying to troll in real life... simpler laws that reduce the chance that said trolls can get the police to over react makes it better for everybody include said trolls.

We can't write laws to contain one idiot looking to land a lawsuit... The fact is it's silly to have that law as a defense... ownership in your home should be legal outright, period, end of story.

Who here thinks there should be any grey area about an otherwise law abiding citizen having a firearm in their home be a criminal act? Speak up, because I can't think of one logical reason to have that law on the books as a defense today... when a single word would solve this once and for all.

[TMF]

Who here thinks there should be any grey area about an otherwise law abiding citizen having a firearm in their home be a criminal act? Speak up, because I can't think of one logical reason to have that law on the books as a defense today... when a single word would solve this once and for all.

I agree, the law should read differently. Luckily it hasn't been misused, as far as we know. But that is not to say that it couldn't some day. I kind of ride the fence on this one; the status quo works, but it isn't the definitive answer. I don't expect it to change though. Not until someone actually misuses it.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

It would have been just as easy to use the word EXCEPTION instead of defense... Making the activity legal out right instead of making it an affirmative defense in a court of law.

We could get this changed without any serious re-writing of the law by changing the word defense to exception in a few key spots.

Actually, it would have been just as easy to trash the existing law and re-write it to completely conform with

the 2nd Amendment. The need is perceived and is a version of political correctness. Making a law where no

law is needed only incriminates a larger group, and can be troublesome.

If the laws concerning guns were written to comply with the right to keep and bear arms, and then write additional

laws to restrict a parolee, or felon, would make more sense to me. Of course, sanity would have to become, once

again, injected into the process, and striking down stupid laws that attach themselves to sane laws would be

necessary. How many examples of those kinds of laws do you think would be on that list? Thousands!

Every time I think about this, I end up thinking constitutional carry, which is what we'll end up with, or we will all be

in jail.

[Worriedman]

The "Intent to go armed" portion of the TCA Code came about after the re-write of the TN Constitution in 1870 in an attempt to make sure the freed slaves could not carry weapons, at the same time the legislature gave themselves the prior to then unavailable power to control where Tennesseans could and could not bear weapons for their self protection. Until that time it was not a crime for a Citizen to bear their weapons on their person, now it is, all thanks to the Tennessee Legislature.

[dieewigeteufel]

I'll actually be going to Florida this weekend. Am I good to go or is the gun staying at home?