Do you carry your firearm with one in the chamber?

[oldmustangjunkie]

What the justification for running the numbers on guns at a traffic stop? Are all guns considered stolen or party to a crime unless proven otherwise?

[Guest Nunya]

Two comments on this thread:

One- We can't expect LEO's to know every law, they do have to "wing-it" quite often. I know a few and know that most of what they learn (especially in smaller departments) is picked up through OJT. However, this is a pretty big think to know or not to know. And, I thought they could lie (or maybe that's just after someone has been arrested and Mirandized).

Two- I had a similar conversation when I lived in Alabama. There and then, you could carry open without a permit. The permit was a CCP, not an HCP. I had simply left my jacket at home and got out of the car. I had a permit in my pocket, but told him he didn't need to see it because the gun was exposed. He acquiesced after I explained the law and later (small town) came back to apologize and let me know I was right. In retrospect, I escalated the conversation and really shouldn't have.

Either way, as has been said several times, I would comply on the spot then follow-up with supervisors later. No need to have it out with the LEO right there on the side of the road.

[Oh Shoot]

...and you FAILED to mention you HAD A GUN and forgot to tell him, which is HCP 101 (Or atleast they made me watch some lame video during my hcp class where I was taught to inform the officer first thing during the traffic stop).

HCP 101 is following TN law, which does not require informing that one has an HCP, or is armed. The traffic stop scenario shown in the newest state video is quite lame and also does not properly represent TN law. But as a LEO, you surely know all that, eh?

When I do traffic stops I always take the handgun and download it.

Like, take out a couple of rounds? Or check the online user manual?

I run the serial, and if its good to go ...

Do you check all other items in sight that may have serial numbers also? Computers, smart phones, watches, chain saws? Or only further inconvenience HCP holders by checking firearms? Gawd help the poor sap that may have been to the range with a bunch of guns.

... I give it back downloaded and ask the driver to load up down the road. All of which, I do for my safety.

I'd opine that your overall safety would be better enhanced by not having a firearm handled at all, by driver or yourself.

- OS

[mikegideon]

I'd opine that your overall safety would be better enhanced by not having a firearm handled at all, by driver or yourself.

- OS

I think your opining is spot on

[Superman]

HCP 101 is following TN law, which does not require informing that one has an HCP, or is armed. The traffic stop scenario shown in the newest state video is quite lame and also does not properly represent TN law. But as a LEO, you surely know all that, eh?

Like, take out a couple of rounds? Or check the online user manual?

Do you check all other items in sight that may have serial numbers also? Computers, smart phones, watches, chain saws? Or only further inconvenience HCP holders by checking firearms? Gawd help the poor sap that may have been to the range with a bunch of guns.

I'd opine that your overall safety would be better enhanced by not having a firearm handled at all, by driver or yourself.

- OS

But you you never know what kind of criminals are going to pay $200+ and voluntarily give the state his fingerprints just to shoot someone.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Superman

[Oh Shoot]

But you you never know what kind of criminals are going to pay $200+ and voluntarily give the state his fingerprints just shoot someone.

Yeah.

I know traffic stops are one of the most dangerous things a cop does, but it's also stressful for the driver too, some very much so (except for all the leadfoots on here who seem to get stopped regularly of course).

I'd not want an already nervous and flustered person even handing a gun to me.

- OS

[alwaysonjohn]

In my HCP class we were told to inform the police officer at a traffic stop that you have a permit. No its not law, but it is a good thing to do. It is required that you show a HCP if requested. As far as disarming a HCP holder, yes it is written in the TCA that an officer can disarm a HCP individual if he believes it is necessary for the protection of the permit holder, officer, or other individuals. In my scenario it would be for my protection.. I normally only disarm if it is on the person's hip. If its in the glove box or center console I leave it where it is and ask the person to step out so its out of "play". Unfortunately some HCP holders have done stupid things which require officers to be more careful and take guns out of play on traffic stops. The court system will back the officer on this 100%. And yes, you can't lie to an officer, but similarly when it comes to TCA you can educate the officer or his supervisor (why not call and complain later). Hopefully his/her supervisor has daily briefings to cover laws that his squad needs to be educated on.

39-17-1351. Handgun carry permits. (t) Any law enforcement officer of this state or of any county or municipality may, within the realm of the officer's lawful jurisdiction and when the officer is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's official duties, disarm a permit holder at any time when the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the permit holder, officer or other individual or individuals. The officer shall return the handgun to the permit holder before discharging the permit holder from the scene when the officer has determined that the permit holder is not a threat to the officer, to the permit holder, or other individual or individuals provided that the permit holder has not violated any provision of this section and provided the permit holder has not committed any other violation that results in the arrest of the permit holder.

Edited October 12, 2012 by alwaysonjohn

[glowdotGlock]

[glowdotGlock]

Sorry. I didn't see the one before mine.

[oldmustangjunkie]

What the justification for running the numbers on guns at a traffic stop? Are all guns considered stolen or party to a crime unless proven otherwise?

[Oh Shoot]

What the justification for running the numbers on guns at a traffic stop? Are all guns considered stolen or party to a crime unless proven otherwise?

...Do you check all other items in sight that may have serial numbers also? Computers, smart phones, watches, chain saws? Or only further inconvenience HCP holders by checking firearms?

Now we've both asked twice.

- OS

[oldmustangjunkie]

Let's hope we can get answered once...

[alwaysonjohn]

I run the serial while I run your license. So it shouldnt delay the driver more. How many members checked a serial on a gun you traded for? If you have had a gun stolen then you would understand why i check serials of guns. It's one of the stolen items that most owners have a serial number for unlike jewelry, tv's, and phones so it can be entered into the NCIC database.

[daddyo]

On the same vein, what are the circumstances that justify a "reasonable" belief that disarming someone who is legally carrying a firearm is in the best interest of the permit holder, the officer, or others involved in the stop?

[daddyo]

I run the serial while I run your license. So it shouldnt delay the driver more. How many members checked a serial on a gun you traded for? If you have had a gun stolen then you would understand why i check serials of guns. It's one of the stolen items that most owners have a serial number for unlike jewelry, tv's, and phones so it can be entered into the NCIC database.

How many stolen firearms have you retrieved in this manner?

[alwaysonjohn]

When users have a gun stolen why do they post here to be on the lookout for it? Maybe its because hardly anyone checks the sellers status or the firearms status? Do i check your DL because I assume its invalid? Do i check you for warrants on every stop because I think you have warrants? Or maybe its because based on my training and experience I know that guns are stolen. I know that good people can buy stolen property and not know it. I know that the owner of this property probably wants his property back and by recovering the property it can create a lead to find the original burglars who stole the property. And all i have to do is take an extra five seconds to request a lookup on a serial while I wait for your DL status and Warrants status to come back.

This discussion has gone way off topic btw.

[oldmustangjunkie]

I understand your reasoning, but is there a legal justification for doing so? Many serialized objects can be stolen and many responsible owners have their numbers in a place where they can find them. How many firearms have you recovered in this manner?

Edited October 12, 2012 by oldmustangjunkie

[Oh Shoot]

I run the serial while I run your license. ...

You're confusing me.

You don't know if person even has an HCP until you run the license. Or you ask about firearms right away, every time?

But if so, as you said, you only take possession of the firearms that are "on the hip", not concealed or elsewhere in the car? So you actually only take and run the guns that folks are open carrying?

- OS

[daddyo]

This discussion has gone way off topic btw.

Oh, I believe there's more than just one of us who would be pleased as punch to start a new topic...

[Superman]

You never know what kind of criminals pay the $200+, give their fingerprints to the state, and tell you they have a gun on their person.lol

[alwaysonjohn]

On a normal traffic stop I only run guns that are part of the stop. I am one of the officers that asks if you have any weapons, guns, or drugs In the vehicle on first contact. Yes you could lie to me if that's what you are thinking. I'm not going to get into reasonable suspicion or consent in this post.

I don't need for TCA to tell me if I can run anything through a database. I can run random tags as I drive down the road. As long as I have legal grounds to be where I am, have a police purpose, and lawfully obtained it then I can run it.

[glowdotGlock]

On my stops we use our judgement on what guns to run. Not once have I ran the sidearm of a legal HCP licensee. In fact, it eases me to an extent to see that the driver is an HCP holder.

[glowdotGlock]

On a normal traffic stop I only run guns that are part of the stop. I am one of the officers that asks if you have any weapons, guns, or drugs In the vehicle on first contact. Yes you could lie to me if that's what you are thinking. I'm not going to get into reasonable suspicion or consent in this post.

I don't need for TCA to tell me if I can run anything through a database. I can run random tags as I drive down the road. As long as I have legal grounds to be where I am, have a police purpose, and lawfully obtained it then I can run it.

That's correct.

[alwaysonjohn]

Yeah. It's up to the officer. Running anything through NCIC requires the officer to follow departmental policies and state/federal policies which require a police purpose (checking for stolen is a police purpose, running serials of guns you see on movies is not). I still don't get your question of what gives me the right to run the serial. It's not an obtrusive act as long as I don't unlawfully seize the item or unlawfully detain the person. There are many federal court rulings on this, plain view doctrine for one.

[alwaysonjohn]

I only posted here to help answer some legal questions. I don't claim to know every tca or federal court ruling. I am happily watching the lady governors play volleyball right now but if you private message me I will research a topic for you and get back to you within a week or so. However, if you joined in to release your frustrations with cops or tell about that one time... Well I'm sorry and I hope it wasn't me but is this really the place to go cop bashing?