Am I Wrong About TN Law?

[Clod Stomper]

After being on this site for a good while and actually reading the law (at some point), I was pretty sure that the law does not require me to disclose if I have a firearm upon contact with a LEO. Unless something changed in the last few weeks, I'm still pretty sure I'm right.

I got pulled over by the Alcoa PD about an hour ago. I passed an officer while I was going, according to MY speedometer, 50 mph, which is the speed limit. He flashes me and I pull over. He says I was going 56. Believe me, I don't do 56 on Alcoa Hwy even when I'm NOT passing a marked car. But whatever....

He said that the other reason was that my tag wasn't on file. My "B" was scratched and looked like a "D". Fine. That was my fault.

I THOUGHT that my Glock was concealed under some clothes on the passenger seat. I had been mowing all day, or it would have been under my shirt on my belt. As it was it was in the fanny pack that I use while I'm mowing, unzipped. His partner saw it and told him. He told me to keep my hands on the wheel while his partner got the Glock out of the seat. Fine and dandy. I understand.

As I signed the citation for not showing proof of insurance (I had an old card which was expired), he informed me that in this state that it was the law that I must inform an officer that I am carrying. I didn't argue, just apologized. But I may follow up with a call or visit to the PD to let them know that their officers should be aware of the law.

As far as the contact, the officers were very polite and professional. They even went so far as to say that they are pro-Second Amendment (which I appreciate), but gave me a mini lecture about disclosing.

Actually, had I realized the gun was visible, I would have given him my HCP along with my DL. He saw it anyway, but still. The other officer put the pistol back in my truck and told me it's condition. Like I said, professional. But misinformed.

Not intending to start a debate about disclosing versus not. More so about what the law says versus what it does not. Also, I probably just wanted to vent a little, I guess. I can count on one hand the times I've been pulled over in my life, so I'm not happy about it. I'm going to test my speedometer to make sure it's not reading slow.

Will

[Garufa]

There is no law that says you must inform.

[Oh Shoot]

Can only speak for the weapons laws in TCA, but they only state you must show a HCP if asked, doesn't mention having to volunteer that you have a gun, and so as Garufa says, there is indeed no "must inform" law. Cop was wrong on that, for sure.

This usually comes up, though, under claim that you're not supposed to disobey a lawful order, and I guess that order is to tell 'em the truth, if they ask if you have a gun.

Seems the debate always revolves on whether it's a lawful order to ask if you have a gun, which cops routinely do on many traffic stops.

Which is a long winded way of saying "I don't know" about that part. You're welcome.

- OS

Edited September 15, 2012 by OhShoot

[R_Bert]

So you were cited for the old insurance card, right ? And not on failure to inform ?

Seems like the officer's comment is not even an issue.

Go to court, show your current insurance card (plead stupid on that), and maybe the judge will toss for you on 6 over.

Ask DMV how to fix the scratch.

[Reservoir Dog]

As others have said, there is no "must inform" requirement. You are only required to show your HCP if the officers asks to see it.

The language in the TCA reads;

The permit holder shall have the permit in the holder's immediate possession at all times when carrying a handgun and shall display the permit on demand of a law enforcement officer.

[Clod Stomper]

Yeah, he didn't even ask for my HCP. He saw it as I was taking out my DL. It wasn't an issue, but I like to know that the ones who are charged with enforcing the law are actually aware of what that law says.

I answer questions truthfully. He also asked if I had any other firearms in the car. I thought for a second before answering "no". He commented on my hesitation, but I wanted to be sure just in case they thought they had PC to search. Had he asked on a different day, I may have had several others. Today I didn't. Also asked about some antihistamines in a blister pack in the glove box that I didn't remember were there.

To be quite honest, I sensed a "fishing expedition" in progress. Fortunately for me, I was too small and got thrown back in. I drive a 13-year old truck with hail damage. I was filthy from mowing all day and the bed was full of random stuff related to work I've been doing. I probably looked like a ruffian, so he may have thought there was some potential excitement for the night. Happy to disappoint.

Yes, I'll get the license plate fixed, take current proof of insurance to court and make sure my speedometer is right. I have tires that are a bit bigger than factory, so it's possible my speedometer may be off. Probably not by 6 mph, though.

Thanks all,

Will

[Oh Shoot]

...To be quite honest, I sensed a "fishing expedition" in progress.

DaveTN and maybe a couple other LEOs onsite would be first to tell you that the fishing part is quite normal and overall at least as important as the traffic stop itself, since many Truly Bad Hombres are found that way.

- OS

[TripleDigitRide]

This isn't suprising. I was once pulled over by a THP officer who needed a refresher course on DOT regulations. Unlike you, I wasted my time arguing with him on the side of the interstate for several minutes. As soon as he let me go, I drove to the next exit and called his superior.

I did receive an apology during the court appearance, but was still found guilty of doing 77 in a 70. Had I actually been speeding, I wouldn't have been upset. But because our work trucks are governed at 70, I knew he was full of **** about that, too. For the longest time I hoped I would one day hear that he was run over by a semi on the side of the interstate, but I'm over it now.

[10-Ring]

I'm going to guess that you were on Alcoa Highway? I pass through there 4-5 times per week. I'm not too impressed with Alcoa PD. Like the others have said there is no duty to inform in TN. I combed over TCA searching and could find nothing. I also had an attorney friend look and she couldn't find anything either. You did the right thing, no sense in arguing with a cop. I guess if you wanted to be a smart@$$ you could request the officer to show you where it says anything in TCA about having to inform an officer that you are carrying but I wouldn't do that myself. If I were you I think I may place a phone call to the chief and inform him that his officers are accusing citizens of breaking laws that don't exist, I'm sorry but that is simply harassment when an officer is accusing you of doing something illegal when you are not. In Blount Co. if you mail in your proof of insurance and a $75 dismissal fee they will throw out the financial responsibility thing. I know I got hit with it last Friday.

[runco]

I actually thought there was a law, maybe I am wrong. I remember in my hcp class back in 1995 timeframe, the hcp instructor informed the class to inform the law officer asap during a traffic stop, to bascially have your DL and HCP permit out and verbally tell him you have a HCP and to inform him where the weapon is. I just assumed it was apart of Tennessee's HCP law. I have been pulled over many times since 1995 and have gone through a couple of sobriety check points, and I have always practiced this manner and have never had any problem. Law or not, I will still continue this practice, I think its just professional courtesy regardless of the infracture that casued the blue lights. If I was a LEO, I would want to know about the driver before the DL number tells me you are a HCP person.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Runco

[vontar]

Some states are must inform, others are not.

TN is not a must inform.

However I understand if stopped, provide my DL and HCP. If ask if you have any firearms, don't lie, answer correctly.(they almost always ask, I have heard this question in their fishing trip before)

Many people here have said their firearms have been taking back to the police car, SN ran for stolen and returned.

I think it is crossing the 4th amendment when they take it and run the SN when for example they only have you for a minor traffic stop.

Some here have said, sometimes the officers tell you to leave it alone and don't check it, while others have it temporary removed, checked, unloaded and returned with bullets.

So policy seems a bit grey, at least different in different areas of the state or depending on how the officers feels.

However, things are changing. In the past, when I have been stopped for minor traffic violations, they only checked me, the driver and never checked ID or anything of my passenger.

Friends tell me now, at least in Oak Ridge, they run checks on everyone in the Car for warrants and stuff.

here is a good handy link

http://www.handgunlaw.us/

You can check every state, for a pretty fair run down of the general laws.

TN

Must Inform Officer by Law: NO

39-17-1351

(n) (1) Except as provided in subdivision (n)(2), a permit issued pursuant to this section shall be good for four (4) years and shall entitle the permit holder to carry any handgun or handguns that the permit holder legally owns or possesses. The permit holder shall have the permit in the holder's immediate possession at all times when carrying a handgun and shall display the permit on demand of a law enforcement officer.

[AU_88]

I'm going to guess that you were on Alcoa Highway? I pass through there 4-5 times per week. I'm not too impressed with Alcoa PD. Like the others have said there is no duty to inform in TN. I combed over TCA searching and could find nothing. I also had an attorney friend look and she couldn't find anything either. You did the right thing, no sense in arguing with a cop. I guess if you wanted to be a smart@$$ you could request the officer to show you where it says anything in TCA about having to inform an officer that you are carrying but I wouldn't do that myself. If I were you I think I may place a phone call to the chief and inform him that his officers are accusing citizens of breaking laws that don't exist, I'm sorry but that is simply harassment when an officer is accusing you of doing something illegal when you are not. In Blount Co. if you mail in your proof of insurance and a $75 dismissal fee they will throw out the financial responsibility thing. I know I got hit with it last Friday.

I know you are required to carry valid proof of insurance, but a $75 dismissal fee?!?! In AL you just had to go to the station and show them a new card and that was it...

[runco]

I just re-read Tennessee Code Annotated, 39-17-1351, and yep not a requirement to inform. Here is the outtake from the law:

(n) (1) Except as provided in subdivision (n)(2), a permit issued pursuant to this section shall be good for four (4) years and shall entitle the permit holder to carry any handgun or handguns that the permit holder legally owns or possesses. The permit holder shall have the permit in the holder's immediate possession at all times when carrying a handgun and shall display the permit on demand of a law enforcement officer.

[DaveS]

I've never been stopped before, but I plan on informing them if it is one on my "carry days". Don't want no problems...

Dave S

[Oh Shoot]

The "must inform or not" that you're packing is also shown for each state at handgunlaw.us, if you're traveling out of state and your preference is not to mention it if you don't have to.

- OS

Edited September 15, 2012 by OhShoot

[vontar]

In states that is a Must inform. You have to be kind quick about, even though most of us know though a traffic stop they have to finish talking before you can say anything.

In the state of MI, there is some case law. Keep in mind they are a Must Inform State.

Q: If I get pulled over by the police while I am lawfully carrying a concealed pistol, is it considered sufficient notice to hand over my Concealed Pistol License (CPL) with my Driver's License? A: Maybe not.

In one recent case, the driver handed his CPL over to the officer who stopped him. He did this because he had been told by a reliable source (an experienced police officer from another jurisdiction) that it is considered dangerous to use the word "gun" when talking to an officer on the road side since officers yell, "Gun!" to one another when a dangerous person displays a firearm. The driver was ticketed for the non-disclosure. In subsequent trial, the dashboard video camera record showed that it was approximately 40 seconds after the officer arrived at the driver's window that the driver verbally disclosed his concealed pistol.

-Source handgunlaw.us

[Dolomite`s Breezy]

You think with the influx of HCP holders the PD's by now would be clear on what is law or not..How does a civilian suppose to know if the cops are not clear themselfs...And then if you try to argue with the cops on laws on the side of the road..not a good idea...

Should we put a copy of the laws in the car ..just in case?..

I would hate to be the one "schooling" an officer on laws......

Btw..I thought the HCP permit comes up when they run the plates..or the DL?..

[vontar]

The normally carry a small book of laws with them that has the TN Law and numbers. Well some of them do, I do not know if it is required but one of the Local Oak Ridge PD guys told me he carry's it with him and he looks of a law and makes a note of the TN Code of the law that he is charging a person with just to make it stand out clear for the DA.

[Trekbike]

I have tires that are a bit bigger than factory, so it's possible my speedometer may be off. Probably not by 6 mph, though.

Thanks all,

Will

If I recall correctly larger tires will give you a lower speed than what is displayed, not faster.

[Jonnin]

Yeah, he didn't even ask for my HCP. He saw it as I was taking out my DL. It wasn't an issue, but I like to know that the ones who are charged with enforcing the law are actually aware of what that law says.

I think so too, but I am in the minority about that.... we had quite a discussion about this very thing not long ago....

[DaveTN]

This comes up all the time and the answer is always the same… No, you are not legally required to disclose. Did he say it was the law, or that it was a good idea?

You live in a state where it is a crime to carry a gun. Even though I am not required to disclose I am going to do it. My first reason is that I have been in his shoes and out of respect for him; I don’t want any surprises that he needs to react quickly to (I would appreciate that from anyone that I stopped). The second is out of concern for my safety; I don’t want any surprises that he needs to react quickly to.

However, that is courtesy and concern for everyones safety; not the law.

[vontar]

If I recall correctly larger tires will give you a lower speed than what is displayed, not faster.

Sorry I believe that is backwards, most speedometer are calibrated to the factory tires. Once you increase the size, you are going faster then expected. The bigger the tire difference, the greater the change.

What I think you have noticed is larger tires will show that you traveled less miles. My bronco II had over sized tires and I knew I was driving a bit faster then showed and if I drove say 10 miles(actual distance) it did not show that I had actually drove 10.miles.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Do_bigger_tires_effect_the_speedometer_How_do_you_calculate_the_difference_I_had_30_inch_tires_and_now_have_33_inch_tires

[Guest sL1k]

Vontar beat me to it.

Edited September 15, 2012 by sL1k

[Clod Stomper]

This comes up all the time and the answer is always the same… No, you are not legally required to disclose. Did he say it was the law, or that it was a good idea?

You live in a state where it is a crime to carry a gun. Even though I am not required to disclose I am going to do it. My first reason is that I have been in his shoes and out of respect for him; I don’t want any surprises that he needs to react quickly to (I would appreciate that from anyone that I stopped). The second is out of concern for my safety; I don’t want any surprises that he needs to react quickly to.

However, that is courtesy and concern for everyones safety; not the law.

He said that it was the law and then told me why it was a good idea. Like I said, had I realized it was in view, I would have told him right away anyway. Just to be courteous.

[Trekbike]

Sorry about posting the incorrect info on the speedometer change. I guess I didn't recall correctly after all.