I have a question about being denied a purchase.

[Guest Like2Shoot]

Ok. I decided to add a AR15 to my collection. I always danced around the idea but never got around to getting one. So I go into a local shop and plop down $1300 for the one I want. Dealer calls me in and I come back denied. He tells me to appeal. He says it's SOP on a denial. I got my Tn. gun permit in August. I have bought several guns in my old home state with not a problem. I only have 2 charges on my record. 1 was an arrest only. The other was a case that went to AMS, turned to a missdemeanor after jumping through the hoops & loops, almost 6 years ago. But after that AMS I got my gun rights returned to me. And since then I have purchased at easy 8-10 guns since then with not a single problem. Until I was denied a purchase yesterday. The dealer says it is a flawed system and it happens a lot. Just sit back and wait for them to call me with the all clear.

What is the specialty of the TCIS versus the NCIS? Why would they deny me on a purchase but not my gun permit? I dont understand the logics of I can carry a gun in Tn. but not buy a gun in Tn. but to get my permit I had to have a gun. Is the gov really that messed up?

What is the specialty of the TCIS versus the NCIS? And why did the TBI deny me when the FBI dont?

Edited September 14, 2012 by Like2Shoot

[Sidinman]

I feel your pain, don't know how many guns I bought before I got my permit. First one I tried to buy after getting my permit was denied, filled out the appeal and was called three days later saying it had been approved.

Bought a couple more no problem, then just out of the blue I want a 22 revolver, denied. Filed the appeal, a couple of days later get the call saying good to go. This has happened to me about three different times, but has always been overturned within a couple of days. It is aggravating for sure.

That is one reason that I wish TN was like some of the other states, where if you have a carry permit, you don't have to do the background check when you purchase a new weapon.

[Guest MilitiaMan]

It happens. I was denied once after having purchased nearly 2 dozen guns with no problem. Dealer said it could have been any number of random reasons. No sweat. Waited a few days, went back and purchased the gun with no problem.

Screwy system.

[scoutfsu]

There doesn't seem to be a rhyme or reason to it. I've walked out the door approved, delayed, and denied. I caught a denial twice. One was solved before I walked out the door and the other time, the shop called me an hour later and I had to drive all the way back. I have no idea why they were denied on either. I have a HCP, security clearance, NFA items, etc.

I'm going to get a UPIN and hopefully not deal with silliness anymore.

It sucks and its embarrassing. Look into the UPIN route.

[robbiev]

The state of TN will sometimes deny if there is anything at all on your record, regardless of the disposition of it. What basically happens is they see something is there, so they deny it, and if you appeal, they check into it and overturn it, and if you don't appeal, they don't have to mess with it.

A UPIN may or may not help; it just depends on what the issue is.

[Guest cardcutter]

O Kay. I'll bite. What ,pray tell ,is UPIN?

[Smith]

O Kay. I'll bite. What ,pray tell ,is UPIN?

Unique personal identification number. It is issued by the FBI for folks with very clear identity issues. Such as if your name happened to be Chuck Manson. lots of hoops and I've only seen one person who had one. It is a four digit number which leads me to believe they don't issue many.

[Smith]

Also, TICS is simply a middle man. The state found a way to get 3-4 million dollars a year by charging $10 to run a background through the FREE NICS system. I can't believe every state hasn't figured it out.

Regardless of the sentiment, TICS tries to get approvals. They want people running checks so that they keep getting checks.

[JayC]

Also, TICS is simply a middle man. The state found a way to get 3-4 million dollars a year by charging $10 to run a background through the FREE NICS system. I can't believe every state hasn't figured it out.

Regardless of the sentiment, TICS tries to get approvals. They want people running checks so that they keep getting checks.

Probably because in most states TICS would be unconstitutional, but it's also unconstitutional here in TN.

[DaveTN]

I’m guessing it will be another case of the disposition not showing up.

You say “One was an arrest onlyâ€. I assume you mean that charges were not filed or it was dismissed in some other way. Your record needs to show the disposition.

I don’t know what you mean by “AMS†on the other charge, but if that is some type of court supervision the disposition needs to show that the charges were dismissed.

On the other charge you say your gun rights were “restoredâ€. If your record shows a conviction involving drugs or violence, Tennessee may not recognize an expungement or even a pardon. In that case you would have to contact an attorney.

The first thing you need to do is to get documentation from the clerk of the court where these charges were filed. Tell them you need notarized documentation showing the disposition and ask them if the disposition was entered properly into the system.

I went through this with the TBI and they were of little help on how to fix it. It wasn’t until I applied for my C&R that the ATF told me I had a misdemeanor charge that didn’t show a disposition. I submitted the proper paperwork and haven’t had a problem since.

What’s the difference in the TBI and the FBI? The FBI isn’t making the determination; the TBI is. And if they see any charge that would be a disqualifier that doesn’t show a dismissal; they stop the sale. The DOS may have had more information and allowed the permit.

Good luck.

[Oh Shoot]

.... And if they see any charge that would be a disqualifier that doesn’t show a dismissal; they stop the sale.

Dave, there have been many instances of non-disqualifying charges stopping the process, of both buying a gun or getting HCP. Your own unresolved misdemeanor being an example, unless it was for stalking or domestic violence. Or a second DUI in 10 year period in case of HCP.

Doesn't seem to me there's any human determination made at all as to the actual nature of the original charge, until an appeal in case of purchase denied, or a notice of a prob from TNDOS regarding HCP.

- OS

[DaveTN]

Dave, there have been many instances of non-disqualifying charges stopping the process, of both buying a gun or getting HCP. Your own unresolved misdemeanor being an example, unless it was for stalking or domestic violence. Or a second DUI in 10 year period in case of HCP.

Doesn't seem to me there's any human determination made at all as to the actual nature of the original charge, until an appeal in case of purchase denied, or a notice of a prob from TNDOS regarding HCP.

- OS

I agree. My charge was a misdemeanor of carrying a gun in my car in Illinois. Even if it had not been dismissed it would have not been a disqualifier. However the gal at TBI told me because it was possibly a felony in Tennessee; the sale was stopped. It was approved on appeal… twice. Turns out she was clueless about the cause.

Not many people want to help when it involves someone charged with a crime buying a gun (guilty or not). I’m just offering up what happened to me. You can do a lot without having to pay an attorney to do it. But you have to know for sure what the cause is, and that usually involves either starting at the source, or doing like I did and applying to the ATF, who did give me a direct cause and told me how to fix it. It cost me $30, it was going to cost me nearly that much to get a copy of my records from the FBI, plus now I have a C&R.

I purchased many guns in several states that did background checks and was never denied. Why it started 20 years later in Tennessee I have no idea.

[Guest Like2Shoot]

I purchased many guns in several states that did background checks and was never denied. Why it started 20 years later in Tennessee I have no idea.

Ive purchased seceral in other states since 2004 with no problem except maybe a delay. A few times it went past the 3 day hold but I got it and never heard anything else as I would've if there was a problem.

I thought about a UPIN/VAF but was told that TCIS does not accept them. It's only for the FBI background states.

I know it's the weekend but I've yet to hear anything.

I don't know if I should call them in Nashville or leave it alone. I was told if you call and bug them they get irritated and drag it out to the last minute.

Right now I have $1325 sitting at the dealer along with the rifle waiting for the people in Nashville or whoever to give a thumbs up.

Never have I felt so ashamed, embarASSed and humiliated.

I've read on here and other forums about the TBI system giving out denials but they are almost always ratified in the next few days. But some aren't and those go the full stretch or stay denied.

I'm just annoyed with not having been ok'd yet.

[scoutfsu]

Jesus, all that drama over being delayed?

[Guest Like2Shoot]

Jesus, all that drama over being delayed?

Yes

[scoutfsu]

You're making a mountain out of a molehill. It is a little embarrassing to be delayed and/or denied but far from humiliating and ashamed. As others have stated (and has happened to me) false denials happen. They will get you fixed right up. You have a HCP, so it's not like you can't pass the check.

I would look strongly into the UPIN route. I know I will.

[robbiev]

The UPIN is a great idea, IF it fixes your problem. If the problem is that there is something actually on your record, it won't fix that problem. UPIN is for when they are getting your record confused with some other person's record due to similar names or similar address or something along those lines.

[Guest HvyMtl]

Hmm, Like2Shoot, I didn't know your first name, now I do

I really do not know the process, but ask the firearm seller to see what he can do? Rerun it perhaps?

[Guest rockytop]

Sometimes, they just plain screw-up. I was denied once(with HCP in hand, and prior purchases from the same dealer). Filed the appeal. Waited the appropriate time and got no reply. When I finally got a number for the responsible dept., the guy who answered,initially refused to check on the status. When I asked for the next level of appeal, he said there was none. I told him I thought maybe someone in the Governor's office could help and he decided to check it out. They had no record of the original application and therefore didn't respond to the appeal. I requested a letter of explanation be sent to the Selling Dealer and me. His reply was that "we don't make mistakes and if we do, we won't admit it". Turns out, I had the direct number to the head of the TICS Division and he was a real A _ _ H _ _ E . Still makes my blood boil, ten years later.

[Guest Like2Shoot]

Sometimes, they just plain screw-up. I was denied once(with HCP in hand, and prior purchases from the same dealer). Filed the appeal. Waited the appropriate time and got no reply. When I finally got a number for the responsible dept., the guy who answered,initially refused to check on the status. When I asked for the next level of appeal, he said there was none. I told him I thought maybe someone in the Governor's office could help and he decided to check it out. They had no record of the original application and therefore didn't respond to the appeal. I requested a letter of explanation be sent to the Selling Dealer and me. His reply was that "we don't make mistakes and if we do, we won't admit it". Turns out, I had the direct number to the head of the TICS Division and he was a real A _ _ H _ _ E . Still makes my blood boil, ten years later.

Yea I am still confused but I got cleared at what seems the last minute. Like day 10-11. They never said anything as why they denied me. But in my old state I would walk out same day. I mean the background call was sometimes bumped up to the next level but it was all good and okay after that.

I just don't like this double secret ultra classified attitude they have. We should have an - we deserve to know what is going so we can fix it.

[East_TN_Patriot]

Probably because in most states TICS would be unconstitutional, but it's also unconstitutional here in TN.

Um... What? Just about every state has some state level version of NCIC. Kentucky has LINK and Florida has FCIC. If memory serves me correctly, the Kentucky law specifically prohibits the state from using background checks for revenue building.

[Oh Shoot]

Um... What? Just about every state has some state level version of NCIC. Kentucky has LINK and Florida has FCIC. If memory serves me correctly, the Kentucky law specifically prohibits the state from using background checks for revenue building.

Yes, and I think TN $10 state fee is what JayC is referencing.

- OS

[East_TN_Patriot]

Yes, and I think TN $10 state fee is what JayC is referencing.

- OS

Ok, I took him to be saying that a state level crime information system was unconstitutional.

[Oh Shoot]

Ok, I took him to be saying that a state level crime information system was unconstitutional.

Not speaking for him, but in the past both he and I have opined that the HCP system, even if it were free is unconstitutional under TN constitution, since it does not "prevent crime".

And though the TICS system is part of the NICS system of checks which is mandated by federal law (which one may well argue is unconstitutional on federal level also, along with all other federal firearm laws), but charging for it is yet another deterrent to keeping arms and should not be allowed under the TN constitution either. Indeed, both HCP and TICS are also discriminatory, as they deter poor people from both owning and bearing arms more than those with more income.

Sorry JayC if I included you in a view that you don't hold, but don't think I did.

- OS

Edited October 2, 2012 by OhShoot

[DaveTN]

Not speaking for him, but in the past both he and I have opined that the HCP system, even if it were free is unconstitutional under TN constitution, since it does not "prevent crime".

And though the TICS system is part of the NICS system of checks which is mandated by federal law (which one may well argue is unconstitutional on federal level also, along with all other federal firearm laws), but charging for it is yet another deterrent to keeping arms and should not be allowed under the TN constitution either. Indeed, both HCP and TICS are also discriminatory, as they deter poor people from both owning and bearing arms more than those with more income.

Sorry JayC if I included you in a view that you don't hold, but don't think I did.

- OS

I don’t understand. I’ve skimmed through pages and pages of people that were denied a HCP because of previous convictions, some pretty violent. You don’t think that prevents crime?