We keep letting this idiot insult Israel. What's going to happen?

[kieefer]

And you'd think carpentry was more prosperous. Who knew.

[Oh Shoot]

...As I said, you can believe Jesus never existed if you want ...

I don't know if he existed or not. I'm simply saying there's zero evidence. There are many accounts of supernatural beings, all written after the fact of their supposed occurrence.

Indeed, the entire Christ tale bears remarkable resemblance to that of Horus. Who was equally undocumented, and worshiped for 3000 years or more also.

- OS

Edited September 12, 2012 by OhShoot

[gjohnsoniv]

Honestly there are two sides to every story. Will Iran try to nuke Isreal? Most likely. Should we get involved? Not in my opinion. We should give aid, but not military aid. The Middle East is a giant blood feud and we need to stay out of it.

[Chucktshoes]

Honestly there are two sides to every story. Will Iran try to nuke Isreal? Most likely. Should we get involved? Not in my opinion. We should give aid, but not military aid. The Middle East is a giant blood feud and we need to stay out of it.

That's my opinion covering the entire planet, and it goes double for the Mideast. Of course I generally take issue with any sort of "entangling alliances".

[Oh Shoot]

That's my opinion covering the entire planet, and it goes double for the Mideast. Of course I generally take issue with any sort of "entangling alliances".

Now that Egypt is whatever, Saudi Arabia seems to be our only remaining long term significant "ally" in the entire Muslim world, and certainly in the Middle East.

Of course that has always been because we grease the palms of an elite few of the already richest men in the world there, and total autocrats to boot. It's laughable to think that "freedom" has ever been on our list of real reasons we mess with that area of the world at all.

- OS

Edited September 12, 2012 by OhShoot

[Seabeejason]

Well, I do believe in Jesus and the like.

But, if we were to chuck that aside and think about other reasons to support Israel in this endeavor there is still compelling motivation to do so. For one, we all know that Iran has repeatedly publicly called for the complete annihilation of Israel. They have even went as far as to deny the Holocaust. Another thing we know is that Iran is definitely pursuing the means to create nuclear "energy". They have admitted this several times. So, when we couple the fact that Iran is definitely seeking to enrich uranium for nuclear purposes and the fact that they want to destroy Israel their purpose is pretty damn clear in my eyes. Israel is only 800 miles from Iran's nuclear facilities. That's about the distance of Kansas to Tennessee. Once Iran has nuclear warheads it will not be hard for them to be delivered to their targets. And who's to say that they will not automatically target U.S. bases in the region? They know that if they were to strike Israel that the United States would swiftly retaliate, so why not just preemptively strike U.S. bases too?

Israel knows that Iran is doing this to make weapons and frankly Americans know it too. Iran's regime is as extreme as it gets. Why would they give a crap about having nuclear capabilities for "medicine"? They don't. I do not want another war started with yet another Middle Eastern country. Our country cannot afford it and the world economy will not be able to absorb the shock that a huge Middle Eastern war will deliver. But I think that it is getting to the point that our hand is going to be forced, one way or another. Iran has already said that they will attack our bases in the region if Israel attacks them. They said that any actions by Israel will be dictated as an action by the United States. So there you have it.

It won't be pretty. Iran is not Iraq. A military campaign against Iran will be very costly in terms of human life if we have to put boots on the ground. But the alternative is possibly having millions of innocent people killed by a regime that's hell bent on annihilating Israel. I'd rather fight than see that happen. It's a shame that the Iranian people will get dragged into this. They are just trying to survive like the rest of us. When I was in Iraq I met lots of great people. Heck, if it weren't for the Iraqi civilians we wouldn't have had any cold water most of the time. I hope the Iranian government will get their heads out of their asses and stop trying to live in the stone age before this gets any worse.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Seabeejason

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Well, I do believe in Jesus and the like.

But, if we were to chuck that aside and think about other reasons to support Israel in this endeavor there is still compelling motivation to do so. For one, we all know that Iran has repeatedly publicly called for the complete annihilation of Israel. They have even went as far as to deny the Holocaust. Another thing we know is that Iran is definitely pursuing the means to create nuclear "energy". They have admitted this several times. So, when we couple the fact that Iran is definitely seeking to enrich uranium for nuclear purposes and the fact that they want to destroy Israel their purpose is pretty damn clear in my eyes. Israel is only 800 miles from Iran's nuclear facilities. That's about the distance of Kansas to Tennessee. Once Iran has nuclear warheads it will not be hard for them to be delivered to their targets. And who's to say that they will not automatically target U.S. bases in the region? They know that if they were to strike Israel that the United States would swiftly retaliate, so why not just preemptively strike U.S. bases too?

Israel knows that Iran is doing this to make weapons and frankly Americans know it too. Iran's regime is as extreme as it gets. Why would they give a crap about having nuclear capabilities for "medicine"? They don't. I do not want another war started with yet another Middle Eastern country. Our country cannot afford it and the world economy will not be able to absorb the shock that a huge Middle Eastern war will deliver. But I think that it is getting to the point that our hand is going to be forced, one way or another. Iran has already said that they will attack our bases in the region if Israel attacks them. They said that any actions by Israel will be dictated as an action by the United States. So there you have it.

It won't be pretty. Iran is not Iraq. A military campaign against Iran will be very costly in terms of human life if we have to put boots on the ground. But the alternative is possibly having millions of innocent people killed by a regime that's hell bent on annihilating Israel. I'd rather fight than see that happen. It's a shame that the Iranian people will get dragged into this. They are just trying to survive like the rest of us. When I was in Iraq I met lots of great people. Heck, if it weren't for the Iraqi civilians we wouldn't have had any cold water most of the time. I hope the Iranian government will get their heads out of their asses and stop trying to live in the stone age before this gets any worse.

That was the kind of post I was hoping to see, thanks! And I agree.

We've been called the Great Satan, along with Israel, and we do have interests in the region, primarily Israel for those things

you mentioned.

[Hershmeister]

Islam is at war with the West - western liberal values in the traditional sense of that word. it's as simple as that. And it doesn't matter what your faith (or not) and how you feel about Israel in a religious regard. Israel is the sole outpost of Western values in the region and we are foolish to think that we can sacrifice Israel to Islamic Jihad and we will be left alone.

[R_Bert]

Apparently Wikipedia thinks Jesus existed, although I did not check Snopes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

second para -

Virtually all modern scholars of the New Testament and Christian origins agree that Jesus existed, and see the theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted.^{[5][6][7][8][9]}

[Oh Shoot]

Apparently Wikipedia thinks Jesus existed, although I did not check Snopes.

http://en.wikipedia....ricity_of_Jesus

second para -

Again, there are no contemporaries of Jesus listed in that entire article, because there simply have never been any found. I went no further with my contentions.

The only thing certain is that the story caught on, and was commented on by future sources. Even "Paul", who likely fomented the lion's share of it, never claimed to have met Jesus and didn't write until some 20 years or more after Jesus' purported death.

I won't debate what I see as a culturally biased compilation of references that offer nothing to refute my original simple statement, which I repeat in even simpler words: there are no references ever found regarding Jesus that were written during his widely accepted purported lifetime. That's all.

Enough though really, I didn't mean to totally derail the thread. And I'm not trying to de-convert anyone.

- OS

Edited September 13, 2012 by OhShoot

[gjohnsoniv]

According to a blurb today in the Sentinel, maybe OhShoot can back me up, Netanyahu was stating we should attack Iran for them. Now I don't know about some other people, but I see absolutely no need to do this. If they want to strike, they have a military that is more than capable.

[Oh Shoot]

According to a blurb today in the Sentinel, maybe OhShoot can back me up, Netanyahu was stating we should attack Iran for them. Now I don't know about some other people, but I see absolutely no need to do this. If they want to strike, they have a military that is more than capable.

You can read all kinds of things into Bibi's latest statements. It's clear he feels both pissed and increasingly desperate.

- OS

[gjohnsoniv]

You can read all kinds of things into Bibi's latest statements. It's clear he feels both pissed and increasingly desperate.

- OS

No doubt about that. That is at least what I got out of the article from just scanning it. In the scheme of things who knows though.

[Hershmeister]

Iran has stated the will wipe Israel off the map and they're developing a nuke.

What would you do as the leader of that country? Nothing?

[gjohnsoniv]

Stop asking for another country to do the footwork and go do it myself. Is it that simply? No, and I know that.

Edited September 13, 2012 by gjohnsoniv

[Oh Shoot]

Stop asking for another country to do the footwork and go do it myself.

Good as their war tech is, they apparently do need our deep bunker busting bombs. Seems we're the only source, cept for maybe Russian and China, who Bibi doesn't have over for tea very often.

- OS

[gjohnsoniv]

Good as their war tech is, they apparently do need our deep bunker busting bombs. Seems we're the only source, cept for maybe Russian and China, who Bibi doesn't have over for tea very often.

- OS

Probably not. Seems the Russians would be more than willing to sell armaments though.

[Oh Shoot]

Probably not. Seems the Russians would be more than willing to sell armaments though.

Iran is their bud, bud.

[gjohnsoniv]

My mistake, I didn't even think about that.

[Oh Shoot]

My mistake, I didn't even think about that.

Well, actually, to be a bit more fair and balanced, they have been buds for a long time, going back at least to when Iran couldn't have fought Iraq to a standstill without them, but they seem to have finally been persuaded to cool it some with arms, although they still bought their oil throughout all the sanctions AFAIK.

And they (and China!) just got on board with the UN rez to cool it on the nuke stuff, too, dunno what muscled that yet. But I still don't think they'll sell the Israelis anything that could have regional significance.

- OS

Edited September 13, 2012 by OhShoot

[gjohnsoniv]

I just could see Russians selling both sides of the fence as long as it doesn't cause them to lose the other side.

[Seabeejason]

I just could see Russians selling both sides of the fence as long as it doesn't cause them to lose the other side.

The United States has done it many times, indirectly of course. The Russians and the Chinese have a large interest in this little debacle. China needs oil and Russia likes to stir sh*t with the United States.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Seabeejason

[TMF]

Honestly there are two sides to every story. Will Iran try to nuke Isreal? Most likely. Should we get involved? Not in my opinion. We should give aid, but not military aid. The Middle East is a giant blood feud and we need to stay out of it.

I'm not trying to be an a$$ by saying it this way, but it baffles me that folks seem to think that America will stay out of it when (not if) Iran launches a nuke into Israel. We will absolutely get involved when that happens whether you think we should or not. That is the reality of the situation. Would it not make sense to prevent Iran from getting a nuke, especially when we can do that without committing forces or engaging in an actual aerial strike???

As someone who has answered the call when our country went to war, I do not want to have to do it again because Americans just kept hitting the snooze button, nor do I want my children to have to do it. We played that game and that's how we got two wars that everyone bitches about non-stop. Now, here we are with a clear cut example of how WW3 is going to start and the answer is to ignore it because it ain't our business? We played that game too; twice last century. Just incredibly naive and one dimensional to look at this situation as an Israeli problem only. We shouldn't have to wait until our mistakes are quantifiable. That is what being proactive is all about. It's like someone with high cholesterol not doing anything until they have a heart attack. Why wait until it gets that bad when you know the result is inevitable if you continue your way of life. Just absolutely mind boggling.

[robin48]

I 100% agree. I guess my point is more of why do we continue to offer. The Republicans would have you think we must continue to give them these items or somehow we are the bad guys. I am definitely not saying we should be against them either, but let them deal with it, we have enough to deal with here.

Because they are our only ally in the region.

Sent from my SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

[Mike.357]

A third logical "choice" is that Jesus never existed at all, since there is zero documentation of this Nazarene fellow during his purported life time.

- OS

yep, don't let facts get in the way of mythology.