We keep letting this idiot insult Israel. What's going to happen?

[Guest bkelm18]

I'll tell you something else for any of you turn you back on them types or "Let Israel deal with their own problems"

The zombie apocalypse we all love to joke around about???? Well, get you some:

Zechariah Chapter 14

¹⁰ All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

¹¹ And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

¹² And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

¹³ And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

Sorry, you can keep on thumpin'. I value the book no more than the paper it's written on, and certainly any vague scripture inside that could be interpreted in any number of ways holds equal value. Israel can do whatever they want and they can suffer the repercussions. I really don't give a flip about them or Obama "disrespecting" them. We have bigger fish to fry.

[Caster]

We have bigger fish to fry.

You might.

I don't.

You don't care about them or a collection of books? That's cool. It's certainly your right. Best of luck to you.

Likewise I don't care about fish, or if they fry, or burn.

[Mike.357]

the only reason to back Israel is that it is the right thing to do.

The bible has nothing to do with it.

[Caster]

the only reason to back Israel is that it is the right thing to do.

The bible has nothing to do with it.

One could hate God and Jews and still not deny that it's the right thing to do. Muzzies are not our friend obviously, therefore the enemy of your enemy is your friend. Funny, it was the arabs that coined that phrase.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Sorry, you can keep on thumpin'. I value the book no more than the paper it's written on, and certainly any vague scripture inside that could be interpreted in any number of ways holds equal value. Israel can do whatever they want and they can suffer the repercussions. I really don't give a flip about them or Obama "disrespecting" them. We have bigger fish to fry.

What Caster also left out is that Israel and their enemy do take that stuff seriously, since they are facing everything that

is written down in that paper you don't care too much for. No slapping intended, Spock , but if you don't see the storm

rising over there or wish to sit it out, we may not have a choice, so try to understand that. It may not matter until it hits you and I

in the face, but it will matter because those directly involved do believe.

Caster isn't thumping anything.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

the only reason to back Israel is that it is the right thing to do.

The bible has nothing to do with it.

Tell Israel that.

[Mike.357]

I don't understand your comment 6.8

[Guest 6.8 AR]

Really? You don't think the Bible has anything to do with what's going on over there? Or are you saying to me

that the Bible has nothing to do with our involvement due to it being just a right or wrong thing to do? I guess that

depends on how one grew up learning about right and wrong, also. Quite a few of us learned those kind of things

from the Bible.

This is why I stayed away from any argument concerning religion when I posted this. I don't have a problem with

someone leaving the Bible out of a discussion, which is what I intended, but the Bible has everything to do with

what's going on over there. i would add more, but that's for another day. I'm not and never have tried to ram the

Bible down anyone's throat. You can choose what you read without my input.

[Guest ThePunisher]

All my love for the Israeli people though.

Obama will poop in his own nest, watch and see.

I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you. God bless Israel.

+1 I agree. And may God continue to bless America.

[Mike.357]

No, I do not think a book of fiction has anything to do with it. Do the Iranians consult the bible before they act? Do the Israeli's?

It is right to back Israel because they are our allies. We need friends in the middle east and as far as I know Israel is the only country there receptive to the US. When Israel launches an attack on Iran our military should be flying side by side with them

[Guest 6.8 AR]

We need friends in the middle east for what reason, Mike? Oil? What makes it right?

Actually the Iranians consult with another book of fiction.

Edited September 12, 2012 by 6.8 AR

[Mike.357]

Is asking why we needs friends there a serious question?

Right and wrong is pretty straight forward.

Which book of fiction is correct?

[Guest 6.8 AR]

It is a serious question, mike, because you discount the one reason the problem is happening over there

because you choose to disagree about the religious beliefs of them and some of us, while offering no reason for

being there, otherwise.

If right and wrong is pretty straightforward, then educate me on it's background, other than using the words right

and wrong as its own definition. Or maybe you wish to educate me on foreign policy. Why is it right for us to do

things, if there is no reason attached to it? I'm not a biblical scholar, so I can't make the argument as well as even

Caster did. Those people believe in that book you call fiction and so do their enemy theirs. You take any reason

for our involvement over there right out with the trash by your arrogance over other's beliefs, unless you can come

up with some kind of secular argument for our involvement in their affairs. I believe we have a reason, but it ain't

secular in nature.

What difference would that make, which book of fiction is correct, to you?

[Guest rebeldrummer]

Caster I gain more respect for you daily.

Especially after your posts here.

I commend you for standing up for what is right, not just for what you think is right.

It's one thing to THINK something is right, it's another to KNOW something is right.

A lot of people now a days are sadly uneducated to many very important Biblical truths, especially this one.

Romans 1:21 comes to mind....

[Guest rebeldrummer]

the only reason to back Israel is that it is the right thing to do.

The bible has nothing to do with it.

Mike as believers in Christ and what the Bible teaches, it (the Bible) has everything to do with it.

Paul instructs us as to the immense debt we Gentiles owe Israel for our spiritual inheritance, and reminds us of our duty to help Israel in earthly matters. (Romans 15: 27)

And Psalms 122:6 calls for us to pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

Not to sound sarcastic but it does seem to me that it has everything to do with the Bible

[TMF]

We need friends in the middle east for what reason, Mike? Oil? What makes it right?

Actually the Iranians consult with another book of fiction.

You're smart enough to know that our economy runs on oil. We can't enjoy our way if life without it. In fact, without it we would see famine on a scale much higher than during the great depression. Unless you believe that all those big rigs on our highways run on sunshine.

And the Iranians (Muslims) do believe in the Old and New Testaments, consider themselves children of Abraham, and believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

[Hershmeister]

You're smart enough to know that our economy runs on oil. We can't enjoy our way if life without it. In fact, without it we would see famine on a scale much higher than during the great depression. Unless you believe that all those big rigs on our highways run on sunshine.

And the Iranians (Muslims) do believe in the Old and New Testaments, consider themselves children of Abraham, and believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

This is only partly correct. Islam believes that the jews and christians corrupted the Old and New testaments. Additionally Islam believes that Jesus was a prophet, not the messiah and was Muslim and never christian. In fact the koran describes the death of Jesus (Isa) as being a trick and his body was replaced by a double.

http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/durie/islamic_jesus.html

Christians and Jews have corrupted their scriptures. (Âl 'Imran 3:74-77, 113) Although Christians believe ‘Isa died on a cross, and Jews claim they killed him, in reality he was not killed or crucified, and those who said he was crucified lied (An-Nisa’ 4:157). ‘Isa did not die, but ascended to Allah. (An-Nisa’ 4:158) On the day of Resurrection ‘Isa himself will be a witness against Jews and Christians for believing in his death. (An-Nisa’ 4:159)

[TMF]

This is only partly correct. Islam believes that the jews and christians corrupted the Old and New testaments. Additionally Islam believes that Jesus was a prophet, not the messiah and was Muslim and never christian. In fact the koran describes the death of Jesus (Isa) as being a trick and his body was replaced by a double.

http://www.answering...amic_jesus.html

Christians and Jews have corrupted their scriptures. (Âl 'Imran 3:74-77, 113) Although Christians believe ‘Isa died on a cross, and Jews claim they killed him, in reality he was not killed or crucified, and those who said he was crucified lied (An-Nisa’ 4:157). ‘Isa did not die, but ascended to Allah. (An-Nisa’ 4:158) On the day of Resurrection ‘Isa himself will be a witness against Jews and Christians for believing in his death. (An-Nisa’ 4:159)

Yes, they believe that the OT and NT were corrupted by man, but were the word of God in it's original form. It's a big part of their argument for the Quran, as they believe it exists today in its original, uncorrupted form; straight from Muhammed's mouth to currently printed Quran's. Since they believe Muhammed to be the final prophet (because they also believe in all the others) this is the final word of God until Jesus returns to lead Muslims in the fight against the anti-Christ. Of course, according to history the Quran has absolutely been corrupted and adapted after Muhammed's death, along with soooo many of the hadiths to the point that Muslim scholars had to get together and classify them based on their veracity.

However, with all this, they still believe in several books of the Bible in their current form. I'd have to search around 'cause I don't remember exactly which ones, but they believe in them and do not consider them corrupted.

There are many things they differ on in regards to their belief in the OT and NT and Jesus Christ, but then again, so do the Mormans and many of us are about to vote for one as President of the US. My statement above was to temper the misunderstanding of the relation of Islam to Christianity and Judaism. They all derive from the same source. In fact, Muslim scholars have argued that Christians and Jews may be allowed into heaven even though they haven't followed the final prophet.... kinda nice of them, huh?

Edited September 12, 2012 by TMF

[Hozzie]

I could care less about any religion and that isn't why I am against it. For me, it is purely about spending billions of dollars on something that we don't have the money for. Almost everyone on this board is fiscally conservative and we complain all of the time about wasting money for this or that.

The fact is, we each have our own priorities and we have our own reasons for believing so. We will never convince each other that what we believe is right or wrong based on our own beliefs. In the end, I am sick and tired of paying (a lot) of taxes for things that I don't consider the priority. For me, we should be paying down our debt and if that means Isreal and everyone else has to make thier own way, so be it. I am not a humanitarian. There have always been bad things in this world and there always will be. When we figure out a way to pay our own bills, then we can worry about helping everyone else.

My two cents.

[TMF]

I could care less about any religion and that isn't why I am against it. For me, it is purely about spending billions of dollars on something that we don't have the money for. Almost everyone on this board is fiscally conservative and we complain all of the time about wasting money for this or that.

The fact is, we each have our own priorities and we have our own reasons for believing so. We will never convince each other that what we believe is right or wrong based on our own beliefs. In the end, I am sick and tired of paying (a lot) of taxes for things that I don't consider the priority. For me, we should be paying down our debt and if that means Isreal and everyone else has to make thier own way, so be it. I am not a humanitarian. There have always been bad things in this world and there always will be. When we figure out a way to pay our own bills, then we can worry about helping everyone else.

My two cents.

From a non-religious perspective it would still seem pragmatic to support Israel to some degree. I'm not certain how much we give them in terms of cash or hardware, but it certainly isn't so much that it makes a significant dent into what we give other countries that hate us. I'm sure you're against all that too, as am I, but at least Israel is an ally. Beyond that, being proactive versus reactive makes fiscal sense. As an example, if Clinton had invested just a tiny bit in the elimination of al Qaeda back in the '90s, we would have prevented 9/11 and a war that has gone on for 11 years at great expense to the tax payer. Surely that makes sense to you, right? To say that we never should have gone there might make you feel better, but the reality is that if it happens the "Ayes" will outnumber the "Nays" everytime after we're attacked, so best to just avoid it altogether.

Now, with that rationalization let's look at Israel and Iran. There should be a given to anyone with limited understanding regarding Iran's position on Israel that if they get a nuke they will use it. Absolutely they will use it. They have stated time and again that a state objective is the elimination of Israel from the holy lands. Now, do you think if Iran tosses a nuke over the fence we'll be sitting by as it happens? Nope. We WILL get involved whether you think we should or not. So an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. We need to continue to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuke if we want to stay out of a very, very large scale war in the region. Best way to do that is to keep giving Israel the support they need to undermine the Iranian nuke program, while twisting their elbow into their ear with sanctions. And, if need be, give the Israelis the tools they need to be successful in a strike on their nuke facilities.

Just being realistic about the situation. I'd like to focus on what's going on in our borders too, but we can't do that with the belief that everything outside our borders has no effect on us. Tried that in WWII; didn't work out. Had we waited a little longer we would either be sporting swastikas or be referring to one another as comrade.

[Mike.357]

Government policy should never be dictated by religion.

We back up Israel for the same reason I would stop one child from bullying another. I would not want to be bullied, which is essentially what Muslim countries try to do to Israel. Whether or not middle eastern countries use religious books to set their foreign policy is immaterial.

I don't need a book to tell me what is right and wrong, i doubt you do either.

Am I to look to she sky and ask an imaginary being for guidance? Makes no sense to me. As f'd up as this world is, if governments use the bible or koran to set policy maybe they need to rethink how they do things. Because it sure isn't working.

[Jonnin]

This is only partly correct. Islam believes that the jews and christians corrupted the Old and New testaments. Additionally Islam believes that Jesus was a prophet, not the messiah and was Muslim and never christian.

Which I never understood. Jesus said plain out who he IS. So you have to make a personal choice: the guy is either a nut on par with the guy who thinks he is superman and jumps out a window, or he is valid. The guys that try to reduce him to a prophet (some jews do this as well?) or minor diety (some in india for example) or whatever else ignore this, or somehow think that the folks that wrote down his words corrupted them (do they have some other chronicle that says other words???).

The bible was edited and messed with a bit in the dark ages, but we have found older texts and undone most of that damage in the last centuary. I guess I am looking for logic where none is again, a bad habit.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Jonnin

[TMF]

This is only partly correct. Islam believes that the jews and christians corrupted the Old and New testaments. Additionally Islam believes that Jesus was a prophet, not the messiah and was Muslim and never christian.

Sorry, missed this part. They absolutely believe that Jesus Christ is the messiah, and will return during end times to lead Muslims in the fight against the anti-Christ. They do not believe that he was resurrected or that he was the son of God, just a prophet. And, of course like all prophets, he is a Muslim.

[Defender]

I used to give a blanket acceptance to all Jews but no more. American Jews are for the most part, idiots. They vote for this liberal scum and they'll repeat history if they don't watch it.

All my love for the Israeli people though.

Obama will poop in his own nest, watch and see.

I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you. God bless Israel.

Ditto.

Also, American Jews tend to remind me of pre WWII German Jews. Support the authorities even as they start rounding -people up...

Edited September 12, 2012 by barewoolf

[Dennis1209]

Government policy should never be dictated by religion.

We back up Israel for the same reason I would stop one child from bullying another. I would not want to be bullied, which is essentially what Muslim countries try to do to Israel. Whether or not middle eastern countries use religious books to set their foreign policy is immaterial.

I don't need a book to tell me what is right and wrong, i doubt you do either.

Am I to look to she sky and ask an imaginary being for guidance? Makes no sense to me. As f'd up as this world is, if governments use the bible or koran to set policy maybe they need to rethink how they do things. Because it sure isn't working.

Hi Mike!

Don't want to argue or have any hard feelings, but would like to question some of your opinions.

The Constitution was created for a moral and religious society, it was known it would not work otherwise. Our founding fathers adapted most laws "policy" based on English law and biblical scripture.

Who or what in history taught us right from wrong, our moral compass if you will? Is it an inner feeling we are all born with, our genetic DNA, our present government defining right from wrong, the Koran stating to kill Jews and Christians hiding behind a rock?

As a nation we're rapidly going down the path of societal self destruction and self only.

I like to believe there is more to me than the 10 to the 5,000 power chance I am the product of a tasteless primordial soup from a the Big Bang that is said to have occurred from nothing into the universe (wow, something from nothing). Man in his infinite wisdom sure does come up with some hum dingers IMHO.