Stupid question time!!

[Makiaveli]

1. You knew it was going to be stupid when you clicked to read it, so no flames.

2. I am asking purely because I am curious.

Federal law doesn't consider antique firearms to actually be firearms for purposes of sale etc. Assuming TN uses the same definition, would it be legal to carry a loaded firearm that was legally an antique without possessing a HCP?

[Oh Shoot]

1. You knew it was going to be stupid when you clicked to read it, so no flames.

2. I am asking purely because I am curious.

Federal law doesn't consider antique firearms to actually be firearms for purposes of sale etc. Assuming TN uses the same definition, would it be legal to carry a loaded firearm that was legally an antique without possessing a HCP?

Has been debated before, but:

TN has a definition of a firearm:

""Firearm" means any weapon designed, made or adapted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or any device readily convertible to that use"

Firearms are illegal to carry.

A HCP allows you to carry a handgun, which is also defined as a type of firearm:

""Handgun" means any firearm with a barrel length of less than twelve inches (12'') that is designed, made or adapted to be fired with one (1) hand;"

So my take is that it would not be legal to carry black powder, antique, whatever, under the statutes, since they meet the TCA definition of "firearms".

----------------

The AG has opined however, that those type weapons, to be consistent with federal law, are legal for ownership by those who are prohibited from owning firearms under TCA, so that is in keeping with the ever gray nature of TN weapons law.

And to further muddy the waters, there are still lots of towns which have the municipal/country law on the books that all firearms are illegal to carry, except Army and Navy pistols, carried in the hand. The same law that Belle Meade repealed because of Kwik.

- OS

Edited September 10, 2012 by OhShoot

[Makiaveli]

Heh, gotta love TN's laws. Can't say I am surprised. Thanks for laying it out, and my apologies for not searching for a previous thread on this. The idea popped into my head one day, and while I was sitting here I was reminded of it and the rest is just plain foolishness

[Oh Shoot]

Heh, gotta love TN's laws. Can't say I am surprised. Thanks for laying it out, and my apologies for not searching for a previous thread on this. The idea popped into my head one day, and while I was sitting here I was reminded of it and the rest is just plain foolishness

Hey, don't take my word as gospel.

But don't call for bail either.

- OS

[Makiaveli]

Hey, don't take my word as gospel.

But don't call for bail either.

- OS

LOL No I will take it the way I always do, with just a touch of salt, and a lot of respect

[Mike.357]

I would not do it.

I am guessing there are a few places with quirky laws that may allow it.

Will you get stopped?

Maybe.

Don't be another kwik

[Makiaveli]

I would not do it.

I am guessing there are a few places with quirky laws that may allow it.

Will you get stopped?

Maybe.

Don't be another kwik

Oh no, not heading to Radnor Lake anytime soon

[JAB]

Not just antiques. My understanding is that even repros fall under the exception - so that a reproduction of a Colt Navy revolver, etc. is not technically a firearm by the federal definition as long as the gun cannot be easily converted to fire cartridge ammunition.

To further complicate matters, am I wrong in my understanding that, since they are not technically firearms, such a reproduction can be shipped right to a buyer's door with no background check and without even the need for a curio and relic license?

[Chucktshoes]

My understanding of the law is the same as yours, JAB. BP guns are not "firearms" per federal law.

[Makiaveli]

The problem would be, as OhShoot pointed out, TN doesn't mirror Federal law. Like most things in TN, YMMV.

[quietguy]

I am not an attorney, but since the HCP is really just a defense to "going armed", I would think that you would have a hard time making your defense in most jurisdictions. For instance, it is illegal in Tennessee to carry an expandable baton, and the HCP does not exempt you. It is illegal to carry automatic knives, and a HCP does not exempt you. The only exceptions in the law for a HCP are a handgun, and the ability to keep a long gun in your vehicle without a round in the chamber.

[Makiaveli]

Just for the sake of fun and games I'm going to give this a shot.

I am going to hazard a guess that automatic knives and expandable batons are banned specifically. I do know that if I told a police officer I was carrying a Colt 1851 Navy for the purpose of going armed I would be off to jail without a HCP. "Intent to go armed" (not exact terminology) is a crime. For example, if I am carrying around a baseball bat in my car, am I breaking the law? Only if my intent is to go armed. If however, I was legitimately carrying the Colt for some other purpose, then I would have no such intent. Then it would/could simply fall to whether or not it's a firearm. If not, then I am not breaking the law any more that I would be if I was taking my son's bat to him at the park.

[Oh Shoot]

....If however, I was legitimately carrying the Colt for some other purpose, then I would have no such intent. ...

Clubs, >4"knives, even switchblades have wiggle room, but it is quite clear that TN considers possessing a loaded firearm in general public as "intent to go armed". It does not require having mayhem in mind to be charged and convicted for it.

- OS

Edited September 13, 2012 by OhShoot

[Guest pfries]

I am not an attorney, but since the HCP is really just a defense to "going armed", I would think that you would have a hard time making your defense in most jurisdictions. For instance, it is illegal in Tennessee to carry an expandable baton, and the HCP does not exempt you. It is illegal to carry automatic knives, and a HCP does not exempt you. The only exceptions in the law for a HCP are a handgun, and the ability to keep a long gun in your vehicle without a round in the chamber.

In actuality the way the law reads is;

39-17-1308. Defenses to unlawful possession or carrying of a weapon.

(a) It is a defense to the application of § 39-17-1307 if the possession or carrying was:

(1) Of an unloaded rifle, shotgun or handgun not concealed on or about the person and the ammunition for the weapon was not in the immediate vicinity of the person or weapon;

(2) By a person authorized to possess or carry a firearm pursuant to § 39-17-1315 or § 39-17-1351;

Note in section (A:1) it specifies “Of an unloaded rifle, shotgun or handgun not concealedâ€

In section (A:2) it makes no distinction of the weapon being a firearm only that It is a defense to the application of § 39-17-1307 if the possession or carrying was by a person authorized to possess or carry a firearm pursuant to § 39-17-1315 or § 39-17-1351.

I have been in touch with one of DA’s and am actively looking into this.

I do not suggest doing it at this point but I am looking for clarification on this matter and a few others.

[Oh Shoot]

In actuality the way the law reads is;

39-17-1308. Defenses to unlawful possession or carrying of a weapon.

(a) It is a defense to the application of § 39-17-1307 if the possession or carrying was:

(1) Of an unloaded rifle, shotgun or handgun not concealed on or about the person and the ammunition for the weapon was not in the immediate vicinity of the person or weapon;

(2) By a person authorized to possess or carry a firearm pursuant to § 39-17-1315 or § 39-17-1351;

Note in section (A:1) it specifies “Of an unloaded rifle, shotgun or handgun not concealedâ€

In section (A:2) it makes no distinction of the weapon being a firearm only that It is a defense to the application of § 39-17-1307 if the possession or carrying was by a person authorized to possess or carry a firearm pursuant to § 39-17-1315 or § 39-17-1351.

I have been in touch with one of DA’s and am actively looking into this.

I do not suggest doing it at this point but I am looking for clarification on this matter and a few others.

"Rifle, shotgun, handgun" are all defined as firearms in TCA.

It's illegal to carry a loaded firearm. There is an exception for one type of loaded firearm on person and partial exception for another type in vehicle, both requiring HCP.

I don't understand the loophole in the language at which you seem to be grasping?

- OS

Edited September 13, 2012 by OhShoot

[Guest pfries]

In the statute they spell out rifle, hand gun etc.

They spell out club or baton if licensed/ holds certificate.

In (A:4) they state pertaining to lawful hunting trapping etc. and one may carry a blade in excess of the legal length in that instance.

One can carry an automatic knife on his/her property as per (A: 3) Place of residence.

In this, as the law reads in section (A: 2) it does not specify “of a firearm by a person authorized to possess or carry a firearm pursuant to § 39-17-1315 or § 39-17-1351†only that a person authorized to carry a firearm pursuant to § 39-17-1351 has a defense to the unlawful possession or carrying of a weapon.

I have challenged that as the individual weapons are spelled out in many of the sub-sections, the intent of the law reads as though our HCP is in fact a CWP.

[Oh Shoot]

....

I have challenged that as the individual weapons are spelled out in many of the sub-sections, the intent of the law reads as though our HCP is in fact a CWP.

OIC.

Well, it seems clear (to me) that "authorized to possess or carry a firearm pursuant to § 39-17-1315 or § 39-17-1351†is intended to only include the firearm.

Your contention also seems to have less of a leg to stand on since "clubs" have their own separate specific separate defense, so it's very clear no intent is there for the HCP to include impact weapons, which would further suggest the intent of the firearm part is specific to firearms only.

Switchblade, of course, has it's own discrete statute; incidentally, I would argue that paramedics are not exempted to carry switchblades under it, contrary to what many say, but only military and LEA. Whether that's by intent or accident in the language I couldn't say.

- OS

Edited September 13, 2012 by OhShoot

[Makiaveli]

Clubs, >4"knives, even switchblades have wiggle room, but it is quite clear that TN considers possessing a loaded firearm in general public as "intent to go armed". It does not require having mayhem in mind to be charged and convicted for it.

- OS

Taken out of context. I should have quoted quietguy as I was responding to him. So i said what you quoted as part of saying if it isn't a firearm, then it would depend on my intent. Obviously if the object in question is a firearm, the rest is moot. Also, I thought I implied sufficiently that I was just going along with it for fun.

I didn't start this thread with the intention of getting moral support for buying a Colt and going to jail. As soon as my tractor can stay out of the shop for more than a month at a time, I should have the cash to start the ball rolling. Still have to give the Feds a pound of flesh to get my Cert. of Live Birth and all that.

[Oh Shoot]

Taken out of context. ...

Mea culpa, really,.

... I should have the cash to start the ball rolling. Still have to give the Feds a pound of flesh to get my Cert. of Live Birth and all that.

That's a new wrinkle in thread, what is this endeavor?

- OS

[Makiaveli]

Mea culpa, really,.

That's a new wrinkle in thread, what is this endeavor?

- OS

Ah sorry, wasn't trying to derail things. I don't have my HCP, in part because I don't have an original copy of my Cert. of Live Birth, ie I am a full fledged Army Brat, born in Frankfurt, Germany. To get your HCP, you have to present an original copy. I do find it amusing that I could use a passport which I could get with my copy of my "birth certificate". But since I can see having a need for an original BC in the future, and it costs $50 or so vs a passport for $100 which I forsee no real need for....

As to the mea culpa, I should've been clear on what I was talking about. I have a bad habit of popping in here real quick and not organizing my thoughts before I post....