Lance Armstrong Banned for Life and Stripped of Titles

[Smith]

If he did dope, he still won 7 TDF's in a row and never tested positive for any known bannded substance. All the other winners latley haven't won more than one and have tested positive. Either way you shake it, is an incredible accomplishment.

As far as the Eurotrash offense... are you serious? That's what PM's are for.

[Dolomite`s Breezy]

If he did dope, he still won 7 TDF's in a row and never tested positive for any known bannded substance. All the other winners latley haven't won more than one and have tested positive. Either way you shake it, is an incredible accomplishment.

As far as the Eurotrash offense... are you serious? That's what PM's are for.

Really? And then you fire off a really offensive PM ?

Classy,, really classy...

[Smith]

Really? And then you fire off a really offensive PM ?

Classy,, really classy...

Offensive to whom? I didn't send you any PM's. I don't even know you.

[Mike.357]

Barry Bonds hit home runs, Lance Armstrong won bicycle races.

The fact that either of them may have or may not have used chemicals or nefarious means to accomplish it doesn't change the fact of what they accomplished.

Both did it in the midst of everyone else using the same means to accomplish their goals. The playing field was level.

[Dolomite`s Breezy]

Barry Bonds hit home runs, Lance Armstrong won bicycle races.

The fact that either of them may have or may not have used chemicals or nefarious means to accomplish it doesn't change the fact of what they accomplished.

Both did it in the midst of everyone else using the same means to accomplish their goals. The playing field was level.

I dont think that the doping part affected his goals.. he is one badass cycler..IF the accusations are even true..

I know.. even with drugs.. I wouldnt be able to win one ..let alone 7..

I

[peejman]

BungieCord,

Don't take offense to this, but why do you care so much? Of course he doped, so did all the other teams. He was a dirty player in a dirty game.

This.

Barry Bonds hit home runs, Lance Armstrong won bicycle races.

The fact that either of them may have or may not have used chemicals or nefarious means to accomplish it doesn't change the fact of what they accomplished.

Both did it in the midst of everyone else using the same means to accomplish their goals. The playing field was level.

And this. The lack of outcry from those that are clean is telling enough.

A coworker is a very avid cyclist. One of his boys excelled at it and began moving up in the cycling world... bigger races, sponsors, etc. The further he moved up, the dirtier it got. Beyond a certain level, if you weren't doping, you weren't winning. The nonchalance of the other riders about it was disturbing enough that he quit.

They're just going after Lance because of his notoriety. "If we get him, it'll scare everyone else into line."

Edited October 11, 2012 by peejman

[Guest BungieCord]

You're only ever going to believe what you want to believe. If your overarching concern is with the truth, you'll read the details and examine the evidence for yourself and decide where the truth lies. If your overarching concern is reinforcing your existing world view, you'll cherry-pick the details that reinforce that view. After all, there are still plenty of people who believe that 9/11 was an inside job, that the moon landings were faked, and that OJ didn't kill Ron & Nicole, too.

Frankly, there's so much information to wade through, I wouldn't expect anyone apart from a devotee of the sport to even attempt it. But the truth is, the sport's governing body has been part and parcel to this debacle. I've known that to a certainty for about nine years. They enabled Lance's doping, and turned a blind eye when he got caught. Yes, he had positives, but they all mysteriously got abducted by space aliens.

Why would the powers that be let that happen? Because Lance was the fabled Cancer Boy, and his fans were legion. Because he finally cracked the American advertising market for European cycling, something even Greg Lemond's equally miraculous life story and three wins in the Tour de France failed to do. Lance made a lot of people filthy rich, and who wants to kill the goose that lays golden eggs?

So now Lance and the UCI are like the neighbor from Hell with a pit bull, or Dr Frankenstein and his monster, pick your metaphor. The greater problem isn't the monster, it's the master. You can't take the one down without taking the both of them down.

That's why so many long-time, hard core cycling fans are rejoicing over this. Because this is an opportunity to burn the UCI to the ground and rebuild it into something credible. It's taken us a long time to come to this realization, but there's not been a clean TdF winner since probably Lemond. We think the athletes deserve better. And the fans.

Go to the USADA web site and read the synopsis for yourself. Yeah, it's 200 pages, but most of it is double-spaced and the footnotes are extensive, so it more like just 80 pages.

If that doesn't convince you, that probably means you're still wearing that yellow rubber band on your wrist, but it definitely means no one here is capable of changing your mind.

[TMF]

For argument's sake let's say that all the doping allegations are true; so what? Everyone does it. The only difference is when he doped he won. Whoopdeedoo.

[Raoul]

For argument's sake let's say that all the doping allegations are true; so what? Everyone does it. The only difference is when he doped he won. Whoopdeedoo.

I guess that makes it all right.

[TMF]

I guess that makes it all right.

If that is how you want to rationalize it, sure. I don't recall ever opining on what is ethical in the sport of cycling. It just seems silly to be so outraged about something that seems to be so rampant.

I'm still trying to figure the outrage. Right/wrong? I don't care. If everyone in the sport chooses to bend the rules regarding doping I don't understand why the outrage exists here. Is it because he won? Would it be different if seven different athletes won the years he did even though they would have been doping too?

[Guest CCI]

His own urine.

I hate to disappoint you, because I know how much you were counting on assassinating the character of whoever I named, but his own wizz was to blame. Sorry for not rising to the bait.

But if you want to impugn the character of Lance's bodily fluids, have at it. The rest of us might find it entertaining.

Dunno where you're looking, but it obviously isn't the right place. And eyewitness testimony is not hearsay, even in a court of law, which this wasn't.

The USADA's 200 page Reasoned Decision is here, along with the 1000 pages of supporting evidence. Knock yourself out, and be sure to let us know when you're finished.

I don't know you, nor have I ever talked with you on this forum! Why are you being an ass hole?

[Guest G23FM]

I read something on this a while back on this and it said that if they stripped him of his titles and were going down the line to the next person in line to be the "winner"... They would have to go to like 30th place because everyone below him was doping as well.

[mcurrier]

I don't buy it. They tested him all the time. Someone just has sour grapes.

[Jonnin]

I don't buy it. They tested him all the time. Someone just has sour grapes.

If you read the stuff, they KEPT samples from some of his old tests. The old samples test + for performance enhancers. The tests have gotten better, is all. Also, while they tried to test him all the time, he was also actively avoiding the testers as much as possible and has lied about the # of tests. Actual number of tests was a fraction (like 1/5th or so!!) of the tests he claimed were performed.

I do not see a conspiricy. What I see is one of 2 things, and its unclear which. Either they are seriously going to try to clean up the sport, or LA did something that has made him a target so that that powers that be for some reason want to tear him down personally. Hopefully they are going to try to clean up the sport, in which case, I would expect to see a LOT MORE people being banned from the sport, along with a number of doctors that were working with the team to enable the dope.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Jonnin

[Guest Lester Weevils]

If/when it becomes possible for parents to genetic engineer their offspring for athletic traits, wonder if such folk will be allowed to compete against "normals"? Genetic engineering to optimize traits might be about the ultimate in "performance enhancement"?

[mcurrier]

So, all things being equal...if everyone was doing it...he was still the best...

[Jonnin]

If/when it becomes possible for parents to genetic engineer their offspring for athletic traits, wonder if such folk will be allowed to compete against "normals"? Genetic engineering to optimize traits might be about the ultimate in "performance enhancement"?

Hah the beginning of the end. We will engineer idiots because we need shock troops, athletes, and entertainers ...... and the usual behavior of such folks is to whelp with anyone they happen across. The gene pool will be diluted until only the occasional mutant has an IQ over 100.

Edited October 14, 2012 by Jonnin

[Guest HillyKarma]

I saw where Lance Armstrong has given up the fight to prove he did not use performance enhancing drugs, so the Doping Agency has said that they consider that an admission of guilt and are stripping him of all of his titles and banning him from bicycle racing for life! Armstrong said he is done with the fighting, and just wants to focus on the future and his cancer programs.

http://espn.go.com/o...-cycling-career

Wow. Just wow. This man is an icon and an inspiration to millions of people worldwide, and you won't leave the damned man alone?

Even if he did dope (which they can't prove) the man is a hero to so many people.

Why can't they just leave him alone and let him live his life,instead of trying to prove him a fraud?

I hate, hate, HATE these agencys and groups.

[Raoul]

Wow. Just wow. This man is an icon and an inspiration to millions of people worldwide, and you won't leave the damned man alone?

Even if he did dope (which they can't prove) the man is a hero to so many people.

Why can't they just leave him alone and let him live his life,instead of trying to prove him a fraud?

I hate, hate, HATE these agencys and groups.

Perhaps the lesson here is the fallacy of sports heroes in general. I have had the dubious pleasure of meeting Mr. Armstrong on a couple of occasions in the course of his long career. I much preferred Greg Lemond. Greg was a generous gentleman. Lance was not. FWIW

[Jonnin]

Wow. Just wow. This man is an icon and an inspiration to millions of people worldwide, and you won't leave the damned man alone?

Even if he did dope (which they can't prove) the man is a hero to so many people.

Why can't they just leave him alone and let him live his life,instead of trying to prove him a fraud?

I hate, hate, HATE these agencys and groups.

But they can prove it. Hero or cheater or just one of a group of cheaters.... whatever, the proof appears to be there in the old samples vs newer tests, or so says the news (which is sometimes way off on facts, but something is going on).

Leaving the cheaters alone is an option of course .... I don't care one way or the other.

[Guest BungieCord]

Gee, ...ya think?

Ex-WADA head suggests UCI turned blind eye to Armstrong

...Richard Pound said he complained for years to the UCI that the seven-time Tour de France winner and other cyclists were given advance notice of their drug tests and then allowed to go off unsupervised. "It is not credible that they didn't know this was going on," Pound told AFP in an interview Friday. "I had been complaining to UCI for years." Pound, who was head of WADA from 1999-2007, said drug testers would do tests on riders in the early-morning, hours before they had to appear for a competition. "The race starts at 1 pm to 2 pm in afternoon and there are no tests prior to race to see if they are bumped up," he said, adding that after races, competitors had an unchaperoned hour before being tested. "So then you go in and get saline solutions and other means of hiding the effects (of performance-enhancing drug) EPO and whatever else it is," he said.

"You have to say 'I wonder if it was designed not to be successful?'"...

...Armstrong's days of sparing no expense to hire big-ticket lawyers to muzzle critics might be coming to an end, Pound suggested. "I don't think it is credible for Armstrong to say 'all 26 of these people are liars and cheats and axe grinders,'" he said in reference to the sworn statements in the USADA report. "I am afraid his time has just run out on that."...

...Still, Pound said many Armstrong supporters, especially in the United States, are likely to dismiss the USADA report. "There are a lot of people who have a big emotional investment in Armstrong," he said. "They don't want to know that he was a cheater ... but if the pedestal he is on proves to be something he got by cheating, it isn't much of a pedestal."...

..."You (have) got to hope he will say ... kids you shouldn't do this to be a good cyclist."

[TMF]

Cheating is a relative term. If everyone is doing it and finding ways around testing procedures I don't see why the witch hunt is out for this guy. I'm puzzled even more by the folks that talk about him like he murdered a baby or something. This is professional cycling; hardly something to be worked up about.

I wouldn't care if he was getting steroids shot into him while he was simultaneously snorting coke off a hooker's ass and clubbing a baby seal. But then again, I stopped believing in the infallibility of heroes when Clint Eastwood did Bridges of Madison County.

[Lumber_Jack]

Gee, ...ya think?

Ex-WADA head suggests UCI turned blind eye to Armstrong

...Richard Pound said he complained for years to the UCI that the seven-time Tour de France winner and other cyclists were given advance notice of their drug tests and then allowed to go off unsupervised. "It is not credible that they didn't know this was going on," Pound told AFP in an interview Friday. "I had been complaining to UCI for years." Pound, who was head of WADA from 1999-2007, said drug testers would do tests on riders in the early-morning, hours before they had to appear for a competition. "The race starts at 1 pm to 2 pm in afternoon and there are no tests prior to race to see if they are bumped up," he said, adding that after races, competitors had an unchaperoned hour before being tested. "So then you go in and get saline solutions and other means of hiding the effects (of performance-enhancing drug) EPO and whatever else it is," he said.

"You have to say 'I wonder if it was designed not to be successful?'"...

...Armstrong's days of sparing no expense to hire big-ticket lawyers to muzzle critics might be coming to an end, Pound suggested. "I don't think it is credible for Armstrong to say 'all 26 of these people are liars and cheats and axe grinders,'" he said in reference to the sworn statements in the USADA report. "I am afraid his time has just run out on that."...

...Still, Pound said many Armstrong supporters, especially in the United States, are likely to dismiss the USADA report. "There are a lot of people who have a big emotional investment in Armstrong," he said. "They don't want to know that he was a cheater ... but if the pedestal he is on proves to be something he got by cheating, it isn't much of a pedestal."...

..."You (have) got to hope he will say ... kids you shouldn't do this to be a good cyclist."

You still never answered why this bothers you so much. You seem to be furiously trying to prove why you support the ban. Enlighten us on your view of why this is even pertinent.

My view is, if they want to ban him, fine. Have at it, it doesn't change history, an it doesn't change the fact that he has a really great charity that will continue to exist. He had cancer, an survived. Doping or not, that's a feat most of us cannot claim.

[Guest BungieCord]

You still never answered why this bothers you so much....

Yes, I did.

[Lumber_Jack]

Yes, I did.

I must have missed it, why not sum it up, without quoting USADA or any of the other stuff. I believe you, he doped, no question in my mind. I just don't think banning lance Armstrong is going to stop doping in cycling.

Edit: ok I managed to find a little bit of the 'why'. But Lance wasn't the first guy in cycling to dope, he was just the best athlete that doped the best.

It's just like baseball and football, once PIDs were discovered its opening Pandora's box. There's no undoing it. It's a game now of beating the tests. Sure I'd love to see cycling with pure natural athletes, I just think that dream was gone many years ago.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Lumber_Jack