Your Opinion?

[daddyo]

My point was we train them to be men physically and on the battlefield but that doesn't mean they are ready socially. Sure probably a higher number than average ARE ready. But the military is a small percentage of society. What about the other 18yo who have never had a lesson in discipline. You have to realize these laws go outside the focus group we are discussing here.

Isn't this pretty much the same logic the gun haters use to justify more gun laws?

Edited August 24, 2012 by DaddyO

[DaveTN]

I’ve dealt with more 30 and 40 year olds that couldn’t handle their liquor than 18 year olds. Being drunk isn’t safe at any age.

[Lumber_Jack]

I’ve dealt with more 30 and 40 year olds that couldn’t handle their liquor than 18 year olds. Being drunk isn’t safe at any age.

That's the truth for sure!

[TMF]

.

For those not familiar with the term "TRiPS" it stands for Travel Risk Planning System and is the Army's version of map quest with safety tips forced in, another way to cover its ass while a Soldier is on Leave/Pass. The sad part is, when I'm staying local for leave and have to do one. (Total trip time, 16 minutes, would you like to see ways to reduce your risk?). Sure automated Army program, shed some light on it for me

When they went to that system I would fill out my leave address as The Cat West. For those not familiar, that is the dirty strip club near the base.

[RobertNashville]

I know younger people have a hard time drinking responsibly but I'm sorry, if you can go to a foreign land and kill people. If you can operate multi million dollar pieces of equipment. If you are willing to fight, kill and die for my freedoms, then when you're not on duty, Bottoms Up brother!

I see your point and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you here but I used to safely operate farm equipment worth six figures plus which were often bigger than some folk's houses when I was 12 years old; should I have also been allowed get my driver's license and drive my dad's Corvette on city streets at that age?

We had similar discussions when the legal voting age was lowered to 18 (which happened the same year I turned 18) - in a way, voting like an idiot is no more dangerous than drinking like an idiot Maybe the only real difference is that bad things happening after voting tend to take a while to germinate while bad things happening after drinking tends to be more immediate.

[Dolomite_supafly]

One of the first bases I was at let any active duty member drink. When I got there, at age 19, the drinking age was 21 then shortly after I arrived we got a new base commander in. One of his first actions upon taking the post was rewriting the post regualtions to say that anyone, regardless of age, with an active duty ID could purchase and drink alcohol on base. And yes there were soldiers who got in trouble but no more than before the lift on the drinking age.

Every Friday my 1SG would buy a keg at the local club. He would sit there and guard the keg while pouring beer for members of our unit.

The first unit function, a BBQ, I went to was really eye opening. There were about a 1/2 dozen trash cans full of ice and drinks. I walked around looking in each trash can for a soda thinking I could not drink. I finally asked when I couldn't find any and was told if I wanted soda I should have brought my own. I think it was my supervisor who handed me a beer and said drink up. This was back when unit funds COULD be used to purchase alcohol.

When I was overseas we had vending machines in the barracks that dispensed beer by the can. Alcohol was an integral part of the military and part of the commraderie when I first joined. Everyone drank and the alcoholics were the ones who drank hard liquor.

I agree that if someone is old enough to give their life in defense of the country they should be able to drink.

Dolomite

[TMF]

If you're considered an adult by the courts at 18, then you're an adult at 18. Adult means what it says. It means you can make adult choices that have adult consequences. That simple. If an 18 year old is not an adult at 18 then the courts need to start considering them minors. If I'm to be considered old enough to be accountable for my actions, then who is the government to say that I'm not old enough to handle alcohol?

If the government can draft me for service then I better damn well have a say in who gets elected. If I'm paying taxes I should be able to vote (there's that whole taxation w/o representation thing). I'm not saying that an 18 year old is mature as a 21 year old, but a 21 year old isn't as mature (in most cases) as a 30 year old and so on. The law is silly. Let them drink. It is still illegal to drink and drive, be drunk in public or do any of the other silly things that younger people are more susceptible to.

[daddyo]

Wonder what would happen to alcohol-related accidents/deaths in that age group if the the law was changed so that they could drink.... I'm betting they would decline.

[scoutfsu]

No need to be an a$$. It's just my opinion, kinda like the thread title.

You cant possibly think I meant soldiers are supervised al the time. In battle, when faced with hard decisions, what do our soldiers rely on? Training?

My point was we train them to be men physically and on the battlefield but that doesn't mean they are ready socially. Sure probably a higher number than average ARE ready. But the military is a small percentage of society. What about the other 18yo who have never had a lesson in discipline. You have to realize these laws go outside the focus group we are discussing here.

I wasn't being an ass. I was disagreeing with you strongly and without colorful language. My point is if someone is an "adult" at 18, then they should be given "adult" privileges like drinking a beer. If a guy can go fight, die, or be maimed for his country.....then he should be able to legally have a drink.

You can't plan for the 10% that are going to screw up anything and everything. Are they suddenly going to stop screwing up when they hit 21? What's the difference b/w a guy who was 20 monday and 21 on tuesday?

If my Army time has taught me anything, its this: if you treat them like children, they're going to act like children.

[Caster]

I can see the point in everyone's argument. It's not a careless decision on my part either. I don't fancy the idea of a 19 yr old boy walking into the liquor store and grabbing a litre or two and starting down the path of destruction. I Do support the idea of that boy knocking the bottom out of pitcher of Budweiser with his brothers because tomorrow they ship out. I really like the idea of doing it on base. It certainly does not mean there will not be problems, but they are confined and dealt with much more easily if kept on base. The chances of a vehicle fatality are drastically reduced if things are kept on base.

It's also my understanding that, if a young man behaves, acts like somebody and not an ass, he will not be refused service from an on base bar. Legal or not. SO I guess for my part, as long as that "swept under the rug" policy is left unmolested, I could agree either way.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Caster

[Dennis1209]

I'm not going to bash our military selective service system, as it has served us as a nation well for almost 240 years. I believe you could have signed up for the Confederate or Union Army legally at sixteen years of age?

My opinion is, if your old enough to do a man's (or woman's) job, you're responsible enough to obtain all the rights, benefits and privileges of a full citizen.

My reasoning has remained the same all my life, so I don't think my advancing dementia affects my attitude, but, how about our federal and state laws? Reason this out...

At 19 years old I went through the NCO academy and became an E-5 buck Sargent (a legal minor). At that same age tens of thousands went through Officers Candidate School (OCS) and were commissioned as 2nd Lieutenant butter bars, by the age of 19 (a minor). Both are military leaders responsible for tens of thousands of dollars of equipment, and more importantly, responsible and accountable for the lives, safety and well being of their subordinates in combat, garrison and on military leave.

My definition of a minor is a child. Someone who is not an adult. You're one or another, not both at the same time.

To me, it's logical to assume any person, organization or entity sending "a minor" into harms way, is committing child endangerment, child neglect, child abuse and taking advantage of someone that can not make experienced informed decisions on their own. See the conflict I'm presenting?

In my original post I forgot to mention, I was too proud to ask "permission and signatures" to get married to my girl friend when I got back from VN. I waited until I was 21 and got married when at Ft. Campbell, KY.

IMHO... Discriminating against those that provide you with piece of mind and a good nights sleep, getting up in the morning and speaking to your loved ones in ENGLISH, is not the American way.

I would personally entertain the idea that anyone, regardless of age, who has a military I.D., including Reservists and National Guard, have at least the same rights and privileges as the rest of U.S. citizens.

Oh yea, I wasn't allowed to cast a Missouri absentee vote from the RVN in my spare time from fighting Charlie based on my child status.

Too young to even vote for my own Commander and Chief, go figure...

[LagerHead]

In TN you must be 21 to purchase or consume alcohol legally.

I believe I have read that the human brain does not settle down and finish it growth type business until about 25 years of age. Until that happens people are effected more strongly by alcohol. Maybe I have it wrong.

There is no way I would vote to allow 18 year olds to drink. When I was 18 I was legally allowed to go to bars or purchase 3.2 beer. I know that made me do stupid stuff. Not liquor or 6% beer mind you by watery 3.2% beer.

I appreciate those who serve, but imho that does not make it right for them to drink. Young people make enoug stupid decisions when sober.

I am not so sure that being 21 is old enough

Beer didn't MAKE you do anything. You were young and immature. Some people are able to handle alcohol at 18. Some aren't able to handle it at 68. Much like we shouldn't punish all gun owners for the actions of a few we shouldn't punish every 18 year old for the actions of...some?

[jtmaze]

I don't think that the average 18 yer old is mature enough to drink then again I let my 17 and 19 years old drink at home. Everyone is responsible and no one leaves when drinking at my house. I would rather have my kids at home safe drinking than out at field parties where anything can happen.

JTM

Sent from my iPhone

[gregintenn]

Most of the guys I grew up around did more drinking before the age of 21, or 18 for that matter, than they do as an adult.

[monkeylizard]

If we're going to drop the alcohol age to 18 to line up with the other adult activities (military service, voting, contracts, marriage, etc.) I guess we have to drop the handgun purchase age and HCP age to 18.

On base, I'd make it good-to-go for anyone with an active duty/reserve ID. Anyone else would go by the laws of the state in which the base/bar is located.

Edited August 24, 2012 by monkeylizard

[Oh Shoot]

If we're going to drop the alcohol age to 18 to line up with the other adult activities (military service, voting, contracts, marriage, etc.) I guess we have to drop the handgun purchase age and HCP age to 18.

You're throwing federal and state laws into the same mishmash here.

- OS

[monkeylizard]

So. This thread does that from the start. why stop now? Military age is federal. Drinking age is state (though more or less forced by federal).

[Dennis1209]

If we're going to drop the alcohol age to 18 to line up with the other adult activities (military service, voting, contracts, marriage, etc.) I guess we have to drop the handgun purchase age and HCP age to 18.

On base, I'd make it good-to-go for anyone with an active duty/reserve ID. Anyone else would go by the laws of the state in which the base/bar is located.

No disrespect intended and your opinion counts as much as mine.. I like having a dialog of the pro's and con's, I may not be on target with my assumptions. But by implication are you suggesting combat veterans utilizing weapons far superior than what we as private citizens can own and use, not be legally allowed to exercise their Second Amendment Rights, off a military installation? I believe our troops are far better trained and have much more discipline than your average Joe CCW holder?

Same goes with alcohol consumption. How many military personnel do you suppose miss morning muster due to the night before partying, compared to your average working man calling in sick that morning. What about coming home from a war, seeing things, experiencing things, and doing things most people who have never been in the military would find reprehensible and disturbing. I know first hand a little alcohol takes the edge off some of those recent memories. Counseling and debriefings are next to useless. Just some Dennis's points to ponder.

I have not researched it and have no hard evidence but, I suspect 30-40% of our fighting force is under the age of twenty-one? That's based on my military career and what my military son estimates. That's probably more accurate than figures you'll receive from the GAO.

While I respect everyones views and opinions, because that's one of the attributes that made this nation great in the first place, I don't believe what is good for the goose, is not good for the gander, to put it in Tennessee terms.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Wonder what would happen to alcohol-related accidents/deaths in that age group if the the law was changed so that they could drink.... I'm betting they would decline.

I'm guessing either the alcohol-related trouble in that age group would increase, or at least the statistics would get manipulated to show an increase. But IMO that isn't the point. Somebody is either an adult or they are not an adult. Freedom isn't always consistent with good individual outcomes. If the age of majority ought to be 21 then set it thataway for everything. Don't let kids vote or join the military at 18 if yer not gonna let em buy pistols or drink at 18. (The kids part is view from advanced age, not disrespect. Once one gets past 60, even folks of age 30 look like "kids".)

Edited August 24, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[Oh Shoot]

So. This thread does that from the start. why stop now? Military age is federal. Drinking age is state (though more or less forced by federal).

Well, as you say, drinking age (to buy) is de facto federal law, so it and military age are essentially federal issues, and could be changed, or at least allowed to change, by federal mandate.

The others you mention: marriage, handgun carry/permits, and handgun purchase (from non-FFL source) are purely under the jurisdiction of the states.

Contracts are under both federal/state, and have too many varieties to make a blanket statement, but there are indeed binding contracts involving minors.

Voting minimum is federally mandated but as I understand it, does not ban the states from allowing younger residents to vote. A bunch of states allow 17 year olds to vote in primaries if they'll be 18 by general election date.

Anyway, was really just an aside comment that a blanket "18 (or 21) for everything" simply couldn't be practically enacted, even by a federal constitutional amendment.

- OS

Edited August 24, 2012 by OhShoot

[Dennis1209]

Well, as you say, drinking age (to buy) is de facto federal law, so it and military age are essentially federal issues, and could be changed, or at least allowed to change, by federal mandate.

The others you mention: marriage, handgun carry/permits, and handgun purchase (from non-FFL source) are purely under the jurisdiction of the states.

Contracts are under both federal/state, and have too many varieties to make a blanket statement, but there are indeed binding contracts involving minors.

Voting minimum is federally mandated but as I understand it, does not ban the states from allowing younger residents to vote. A bunch of states allow 17 year olds to vote in primaries if they'll be 18 by general election date.

Anyway, was really just an aside comment that a blanket "18 (or 21) for everything" simply couldn't be practically enacted, even by a federal constitutional amendment.

- OS

Hi OS!

Since I'm attempting to solve all the world's problems, let's try this one on?

Since there really are no actual "states rights", being that the Federal government actually controls politicians and states laws, via with holding federal funds the state's population paid into federal taxes, and not distributing to the rogue state if they don't bow down to federal pressure, as in 99.9% of the cases. Would that be a blanket statement? States are only allowed to legislate laws that are palatable to federal law. That's a fact Jack! It's civilian counter part is named, black mail. Think speed limit laws, safety standards, state interstate trade, separation from the union, etc. etc.

Read the U.S. Constitution, it's not a document giving power to the federal government, it's a restriction on federal power, and everything else is the people's and "states rights". Look where we are today with Federal intervention in all our lives!

Therefore, as King of this now great Federal Empire, I would propose federal legislation to exempt all military, active and reserves, from age restrictions on marriage, drinking, gun ownership, CCW, HCP, car and property ownership, regardless of age.

I would think our military troops would have more than demonstrated their maturity, discipline and commitment to our laws and our way of life. By virtue of their service, I submit, we would not even be discussing this topic if it were not for our armed forces.

Finally, let's get real. You're a 18-19-20 year old on the battle field, you look over an see your buddy blown to bits, you are wounded also and don't know if you will live, you're in dire pain, you're scared by the sight of your former buddy laying there in pieces, blood and guts everywhere. You get first class medical attention and recover from your ordeal and return home to be treated as a second class citizen.

I write this as a been there done that, and on behalf of our brave troops experiencing it now. If there is only one combat troop reading my opinion(s) and disagrees with my reasoning and what I believe, I'll shut my loud trap, promise.

I don't mean to be derogatory or conflicting but, our troops deserve their earned due, not based on age.

And above all, God bless our troops!

Edited August 24, 2012 by Dennis1209

[Oh Shoot]

....Therefore, as King of this now great Federal Empire, I would propose federal legislation to exempt all military, active and reserves, from age restrictions on marriage, drinking, gun ownership, CCW, HCP, car and property ownership, regardless of age....

Well, you'd have a states' right hissyfit second only to the 1860's. The national carry law would have been a preliminary example had it passed.

Besides, deployment veterans of any age have already been included as a high risk domestic terrorist pool by Comrade Janet, so we can't be giving them extra rights, eh?

- OS

[monkeylizard]

No disrespect intended and your opinion counts as much as mine..

Thanks. I think I may have phrased my point improperly. I agree with you. I have no problem with active duty/reservists being armed at 18. That wasn't meant as a sarcastic comment. We trust them with a tank, but not a .38. That doesn't make sense to me either. 18 and active duty will have far more firearms training than the average HCPer of any age. Besides that, it never made sense to me that you have to be 21 to buy handgun ammo, but can buy rifle/shotgun when younger.

To be clear, I'm all for setting an age at which one is considered a legal adult. At that point, they obtain all rights, privileges, responsibilities, and repercussions of any other adult. If that's 18, let it be 18. If it's 21, let it be 21. That includes a driver's license too, IMO. Since Uncle Sam isn't about to let go of his steady supply of high school graduates in exchange for 21 year olds who may have found steady jobs, started families, etc. and then may not choose a path of military service that they may have chosen when finishing high school, that leaves lowering the things restricted to 21 down to 18.

Just my opinion. It's worth what you paid for it. Maybe less.

[DaveTN]

Since there really are no actual "states rights",

Therefore, as King of this now great Federal Empire, I would propose federal legislation to exempt all military, active and reserves, from age restrictions on marriage, drinking, gun ownership, CCW, HCP, car and property ownership, regardless of age.

Sure there are States Rights. States Rights are why you can buy the privilege of having an HCP when the right to carry is not given to the average citizen (as it is in some other states). If it was up to the Feds you wouldn’t be able to carry a gun.

Why don’t the Feds make a law that service men can drink at any age? Because unless all the states agreed; they couldn’t enforce it.