New regulations for postings? (Opinions)

[QuietDan]

Regarding imperfectly posted signs, that is, if they're: too small, not on the outside entrance door, wrong language, thumb-tacked to a bulletin board, or buried in a list of other customer conduct standards:

If you're carrying OC, and don't see the sign, you can be pretty sure the business will point out the sign to you, and ask you to leave

If you're carrying CC, and don't see the sign, or conveniently/accidentally ignore it, you can be pretty sure the business will ignore you too.

Everyone gets a little wiggle room, unless you give them a reason not to. Why run off customers that aren't causing trouble?

It's kinda like: All guys have a *ick. There's a time and place for showing it off. Most guys keep it zipped up except for special times. Only the guys who feel compelled to show it off in public get asked to leave. You don't want to scare the women and children, even if you are proud of it.

[Guest 270win]

I think the 500 dollar fine should be eliminated. I also think that the fine should be eliminated for parks with certain signs. Only those without a handgun carry permit should be fined for carrying past signs. What is the point of a permit if you still can get fined?

[Jonnin]

If you honestly did not see the small, transparent, stuck way off to the side and basically invisible signs that some places have, did not draw or even touch your weapon, there should be some leeway for making an honest mistake.

If the sign is 2 foot square 5 feet off the ground in the center of the door going inside, there should not be any excuse.

I have a serious problem with a law where a person must seek out and find a hidden easter egg or be prosecuted. A quick couple of examples.... a store here has the sign about 2 feet off the ground, about 5 inches square, transparent, in a window off to the side of the door. I saw it eventually, but not until after I had been in there a few times. Another -- one of our arcade/food places --- the sign is inside, facing the EXIT door, so you can only see it as you are LEAVING that place. The mall here, half the entrances are not posted and you have to park next to a very tiny sign in one a just a few parking spots to see the outdoor/parking lot posting.

I do not actually mind the law. I can buy the property rights angle and abide by it. But the signs need to be visible and obvious, on par with fire-code exit signs or other legal signs that must be of a decent size and visibility and in standard locations.

[Mdunntn]

An update on the business I was talking about. Went there a couple days ago, and the posting was gone. TCA code was inside on a bulletin board. I asked the hostess and she said she wasn't sure why they took it down, or if they were going to put it back up. I just can't wrap my mind around this lol.

Sent from secret underground bunker

[Guest 270win]

Most states do not have a fine attached to a sign for those with permits. It is a pointless law that adds to the mine field of carrying a handgun in Tennessee. i can see people sticking up signs all they want but no fine should be attached to it.

[Guest 270win]

If you are going to have these 'off limits' places, then do it like Missouri where carrying in them is not a criminal offense, but you can be asked to leave. If you do not leave in Missouri, you can then be fined 100 dollars. You can carry a gun pretty much anywhere in Missouri with a license and not have to worry about a fine, as long as you leave when requested.

[TMF]

The law needs to change, but for now no one should sweat it. Nobody has been charged under this as far as we know except for the ones at the airport. Nobody is getting charged for carrying past a tiny sign at a gas station.

[DaveS]

Somehow, us "Responsible Law Biding Citizens with HCP's" need to be held to a higher standard than other gunowners. If we are ever going to effect carry laws in this state, then we need to POLICE our selves.

It all starts with us!

Dave S

[JayC]

Somehow, us "Responsible Law Biding Citizens with HCP's" need to be held to a higher standard than other gunowners. If we are ever going to effect carry laws in this state, then we need to POLICE our selves.

It all starts with us!

Dave S

We're already held to a higher standard.... and the way to affect change isn't to police ourselves... it's to stop voting for legislators who don't support the second amendment... and make their lives very uncomfortable when they don't vote for common sense...

Instead of fighting for the parking lot bill, which IMHO is a bad law... we should be fighting for constitutional carry, or the removal of the criminal penalty for violating 1359, which is virtually a completely unenforced law. or even better yet, expand carry in your vehicle to the home and property defense.

We know of 2 cases where it was charged in the last 10 years, both involve the Memphis airport and the attempt to take a firearm into the secure area, which is already a violation of state and federal law... and it doesn't appear anybody has been convicted...

So why do we need a stupid law on the books if nobody has been convicted in the last 10 years, and only 2 people have been charged, and in both cases much more serious criminal offenses were also charged?

Edited September 13, 2012 by JayC

[RobertNashville]

We're already held to a higher standard.... and the way to affect change isn't to police ourselves... it's to stop voting for legislators who don't support the second amendment... and make their lives very uncomfortable when they don't vote for common sense...

Instead of fighting for the parking lot bill, which IMHO is a bad law... we should be fighting for constitutional carry, or the removal of the criminal penalty for violating 1359, which is virtually a completely unenforced law. or even better yet, expand carry in your vehicle to the home and property defense.

We know of 2 cases where it was charged in the last 10 years, both involve the Memphis airport and the attempt to take a firearm into the secure area, which is already a violation of state and federal law... and it doesn't appear anybody has been convicted...

So why do we need a stupid law on the books if nobody has been convicted in the last 10 years, and only 2 people have been charged, and in both cases much more serious criminal offenses were also charged?

Whether you officially say that your vehicle is an extension of your "home/castle" or just say that no one can post a parking lot that is used for business (employees, customers, etc) that is, effectively the same whether you call it a "parking lot bill" or not.

I'm all for constitutional carry as well as for removing the stiffer criminal penalties for carrying past a sign (leaving it to nothing more than trespassing) but such changes are secondary, in my opinion, if we can't carry to/from our homes just because any one parking lot we might need to park in that day is "posted" against firearms - as it stands right now; if I have 10 locations I need to be in a given day, any single parking lot which is posted means I cannot legally carry my firearm with me that entire day which pretty much makes my HCP meaningless.

[RobertNashville]

I'm all for calling a change in the law something other than a "parking lot bill"...what I would propose is an expansion of the castle doctrine which says something to the effect that...

No one but LE can compel a search of a vehicle

No one (not an employer or business owner, etc) can dictate what can be inside of your vehicle so long as what is in your vehicle is "legal" to have there and so long as your vehicle is "legally" parked or sitting or driving where it has a legal right to be.

In other words, if a business or an employer or any other entity maintains a parking lot where you are invited to be (because you are an employee or customer or a person that entity exists to serve); then you can have anything (legal) in your vehicle you chose to have there just as if it were your personal, private residence and that said entity can't compel a search (or take disciplinary measures against you for not consenting to a search) any more than they could do so if they wanted to search your home.

[Jonnin]

So why do we need a stupid law on the books if nobody has been convicted in the last 10 years, and only 2 people have been charged, and in both cases much more serious criminal offenses were also charged?

Actually I think this is an important side note. I firmly think that MANY laws are ignored until someone does somethign MAJOR, at which time they throw the book at the person in hopes that SOME of the charges will actually stick. So, if they can add a "carry past a sign with a gun" to "robbing and shooting up the place", they get another charge against the person. This is not 100% a bad thing, if it helps to put criminals away for longer or make their day in court worse while the law is normally not enforced. Not sure what to think about *that* angle.

[Guest 270win]

JayC,

I believe you are right that this is where our legislative focus should have been, eliminating the fine signs in parks and private property and legalize keeping a loaded firearm in a car without a permit. Most of the states around TN it is legal to keep a loaded firearm in the car without a license. I think Alabama is about the only one that it is not legal, but you can keep a loaded rifle in the car. TN is to me not a very 2nd amend friendly state.

It is irritating that even with a permit you risk getting fined in much of downtown Memphis and also the parks. Kind of silly. And to those who say you should leave your gun in your car when there is a sign, that is not smart to do in Memphis because of violent crime and also car theft.

Edited September 13, 2012 by 270win