carry on a TVA lake

[Guest Boomhower]

That's great info, thx for posting. I've always wondered if I was legal when boating.

That's my main objective here. I was talking with a friend about going to the lake and carrying. I had already planned on coming on here and searching since I remember'd seeing this topic before, and this thread just so happened to be going on.

[Marswolf]

Hey Boom. I didn't mean to sound so terse. Sorry.

But you found the definition:

Section 329.4 - General definition

Navigable waters of the United States are those waters that are subject to the ebb and flow of the tide and/or are presently used, or have been used in the past, or may be susceptible for use to transport interstate or foreign commerce. A determination of navigability, once made, applies laterally over the entire surface of the waterbody, and is not extinguished by later actions or events which impede or destroy navigable capacity.

So the local lakes aren't navigable since there is no lock system to allow them to transport commerce. The farthest upstream that I know of that could be considered navigable is Kingsport

[GLOCKMEISTER]

yea, I'll post it when I dig it out of my files. I gave Gene from Legally Armed a copy of one of them about 10 years ago so its no biggie.

And what Mars said above is correst... so like here in Nashville your good to go on Old Hickory, Cheatham, Barckley, and Kentucky Lakes.... but not Percy Priest.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

hey the Tennessee River runs thru Knoxville... your good to go there.

[Guest Boomhower]

Hey Boom. I didn't mean to sound so terse. Sorry.

You didn't. I was just clearing the air before we got another post war going on this great forum.

[Guest Boomhower]

is it a navigatable waterway... if so then you can, but I dont think it is.

Sorry, I know I am going back a ways here, but I just want to be clear on this. Are you saying here that a lake has to be navigable to commerce before you can carry a handgun on it?....(I'm kinda combining yours and Mar's comments)

[GLOCKMEISTER]

YES...

[Fallguy]

Not all lakes right?

I mean I would think private lakes would be ok.

...and what about non-TVA controlled lakes?

[Guest Boomhower]

Is there a written law on this?

[Guest Boomhower]

Ok. I'm just going to ask the dumby'd down version of what I am trying to find out. If I go to Norris Lake for a day of boating, can I legally carry my handgun with a HCP? Norris Lake is a man made lake by the Tennessee Valley Authority and the water levels are controlled by Norris Dam. Does this make Norris Lake non-navigable for commerce, and therefore non-carryable?

[Guest GUTTERbOY]

yes as long as its a GLOCK you can get them wet and they still shoot like new

Or, if you're lucky, it'll fall out of the holster and sink to the bottom.

[Marswolf]

Ok. I'm just going to ask the dumby'd down version of what I am trying to find out. If I go to Norris Lake for a day of boating, can I legally carry my handgun with a HCP? Norris Lake is a man made lake by the Tennessee Valley Authority and the water levels are controlled by Norris Dam. Does this make Norris Lake non-navigable for commerce, and therefore non-carryable?

It does get confusing, and frankly I'm not entirely sure.

It sounds like you can carry if you are on navigable water and don't put in at a government ramp or whatever. But navigable doesn't mean you can ship goods down that waterway now, but that you could at some time.

Thus Kingsport is navigable because the flatboats used to ship stuff down river up until the time the railroad came through Johnson City. But these days, you couldn't transport anything from Kingsport on the Holston River any farther than Cherokee Dam. The river has always been too shallow above Kingsport for commercial transportation. So Fort Patrick Henry, Boone, South Holston and Watauga lakes are not navigable water.

I don't know about Norris.

This is a good question, and I don't think it is fully answered yet. I'd say it will be Tuesday before I can get hold of someone at TVA to ask about this up on our lakes.

[Fallguy]

Of course something else to make it somewhat confusing is....there are two types of lakes sort of.

You have lakes like Kentucky Lake, Pickwick Lake that are actually just parts of the TN river. That section of the river is simply called a lake because of a dam on the river.

Then there are lakes that are independent bodies of water with no outlet..or maybe only a small creek as an outlet. (Not sure if there are any TVA lakes like these)

I admit, I may have missed something, is the part about carrying on navigable waterway only apply to TVA controlled waters?

What about creeks and smaller non-damed rivers?

[Guest Phantom6]

Hey Boom. I didn't mean to sound so terse. Sorry.

But you found the definition:

Section 329.4 - General definition

Navigable waters of the United States are those waters that are subject to the ebb and flow of the tide and/or are presently used, or have been used in the past, or may be susceptible for use to transport interstate or foreign commerce. A determination of navigability, once made, applies laterally over the entire surface of the waterbody, and is not extinguished by later actions or events which impede or destroy navigable capacity.

So the local lakes aren't navigable since there is no lock system to allow them to transport commerce. The farthest upstream that I know of that could be considered navigable is Kingsport

Hey Marswolf, seems to me that you just contradicted the section of the law you just posted. To wit, the portion I have placed in red. Those waters were navigable a hundred years prior to TVA or other corporate activities. Norris lake for example is actually an impoundment formed by Norris Dam (TVA) which encompasses the confluence of the Clinch and the Powell rivers. Prior to it's construction one could travel from New Orleans to Tazwell up in Claiborne County TN on either the Clinch or the Powell rivers. Possibly even beyond as both of these rivers enter the state there near Cumberland Gap from Lee County VA. Wouldn't the portion "not extinguished by later actions or events which impede or destroy navigable capacity" cover the navagability of Norris and other dam projects that were constructed without locking systems?

If my interpretaton is correct then it would seem that Norris would be considered Navagable under the legal definition and therefore OK for carry as long as other qualifications were met.

Questions comments or observations anyone?

[Marswolf]

If I understand your post, that's what I'm saying, Phantom. Kingsport and downriver, through Cherokee lake is navigable because at one time it was used for commercial trade. I didn't know about trade on the river where Norris now resides. Is it on the Clinch? Guess I could check myself.

The part that gets me is the "applies laterally over the entire surface of the waterbody" thing. I guess they are saying that the navigable waters includes the farthest place upstream that was used for commerce in a river, or the entire surface of a embayment area that the farthest commerce place is now. But if that applies to a river, it seems to me that the area upstream of the commercial docks were never navigable and so you should not consider the mileage upstream in that category. I guess the upstream surface is not technically lateral?

Above Kingsport, Fort Patric Henry Lake, etcetera, would be navigable if they had a lock system but they don't. That was my point about the locks.

[Guest Phantom6]

Well, there were no commercial docks at Norris because it didn't exist prior to 1931 when TVA built it's first dam there breaking ground in October of that year. I know for a fact that Clinton, 8 river miles down-stream had commercial docks and I'm sure that food products, lumber and hides were sent down from Claiborne county though I don't know about set "commercial docks" being situated there.

Seems to me that we are in agreement as legally at least, the navagabality of the rivers would not have been extinguished by later actions or events such as dams, bridges etc. which now impede or destroy navigable capacity.

[Marswolf]

OK. The Clinch river empties into Norris lake. The clinch was used for commerce at least as far up as Greasy Rock (now Sneedville) so Norris is navigable water.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

two questions to ask yourself, does the lakes dam have a lock system? Does bardges travel that lake? Does it empty to another lake that has a dam? iF THESE APPLY, THEN ITS A NAVIGATABLE WATERWAY.

[Guest tadams]

...

Thus Kingsport is navigable because the flatboats used to ship stuff down river up until the time the railroad came through Johnson City. But these days, you couldn't transport anything from Kingsport on the Holston River any farther than Cherokee Dam. The river has always been too shallow above Kingsport for commercial transportation. So Fort Patrick Henry, Boone, South Holston and Watauga lakes are not navigable water....

Regarding this, specifically: remember that the (now) buried reactor chamber was brought all the way up from an inlet in the gulf to just beside it's current resting place in Hawkins County. So, it would be my opinion that ALL that water would still be considered navigable up to that point. Honestly, there has never been a rise high enough in the water to consider the area upstream from there as navigable. Historically speaking, wooden flat barges and such shouldn't matter.

I would think, though, that dams and such WOULD terminate the ability to be considered navigable. The way I read it, it means that if the waters are such that they rise (within an annual?? measure) enough to be used for navigable transport, then they should be considered a navigable waterway. So, if the dams upstream (Patrick Henry, Boone, etc) cause the water to rise in such a manner for navigable transport downstream on somewhat of a normal occurrence, then it's navigable. If they don't (and wooden flat-barges, Rubber Ducky races, and Fun-Fest events shouldn't count) then it's non-navigable.

How can these kind of obstructions not count? "Actions or Events" are quite a bit different from a physical concrete Hydro-electric structure when it comes to "imped[ing] or destroy[ing] navigable capacity", irregardless of the water's ebb and flow.

Edited May 27, 2008 by tadams

[Marswolf]

Regarding this, specifically: remember that the (now) buried reactor chamber was brought all the way up from an inlet in the gulf to just beside it's current resting place in Hawkins County.

Actually, the reactor vessel was trucked in the final few miles to the Phipps Bend site. I guess that Cherokee Dam got in he way.

That ring you see is the beginning of a cooling tower. The area is now an industrial park.

As I read the U.S.C., if you were ever able to commercially navigate the waterbody then it is forever considered navigable, even if it no longer can be used for shipping.

[Guest tadams]

Actually, the reactor vessel was trucked in the final few miles to the Phipps Bend site. I guess that Cherokee Dam got in he way.

I did, indeed, forget about the trucking of it the last few miles. ...and Cherokee, altogether. I've got a book, somewhere, that's got a pic of the transportation crew making a turn with it.

I've been around that ring many a time.

[Guest Phantom6]

If they don't (and wooden flat-barges, Rubber Ducky races, and Fun-Fest events shouldn't count) then it's non-navigable.

How can these kind of obstructions not count? "Actions or Events" are quite a bit different from a physical concrete Hydro-electric structure when it comes to "imped[ing] or destroy[ing] navigable capacity", irregardless of the water's ebb and flow.

1. I'll bet the folks that lived and died moving goods on those wooden flat boats for a couple of hundred years would disagree with you. Of course Rubber ducky races and Fun-Fest events came along long after the dams were built. Good thing they forgot to call you when they wrote the law. Otherwise, carry on the upper lakes would definately be illegal.
   
2. Though I'm not an attorney nor have I ever played one on Television I've read enough law to be reasonably certain that in this instance "Actions" would refer to "man-made" things like dam and or bridge construction and "events" would refer to natural occurrences like earth quakes, timber blow-downs, landslides etc.
   

Though I'm sure that these "loop holes" in the law were not left there for our ability to carry a firearm on bodies of water cut off by man made construction.

In any event I'll be interested to see what Marswolf finds out when he contacts the Cost Guard, Army Corps of Engineers, TVA or any other governing body that he can get a hold of regarding this matter. I'd be willing to bet that legally, the water is fine. It's all in how you get there that will make the difference.

[Guest jth_3s]

I know hunters are allowed to carry guns on TVA lakes and if your boat doesnt have a motor or the prop is lifted out of the water you can actually hunt off your boat. I dont see why you couldnt carry.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

[GLOCKMEISTER]

let me keep looking, i have another one to me before that one... and another about navigatable waterways. Im not so sure I want to dig any further, this is a pretty "keep you out of jail card" in itself, no sense in complicating it any further.

Please feel free to copy and print this and keep it in your boat, this way if your poliet and you show it to whomever might stop you... most likely TWRA then there is no "criminal" intent involved and I dont see how they couldnt agree, if they disagree they still should let you go.

Edited May 27, 2008 by GLOCKMEISTER