carry on a TVA lake

[mdmoseley]

I know for a fact that doesn't apply to ACOE lakes. The ACOE website says firearms are strickly prohibited on their property. Their property includes the lake and i believe 10 feet above summer pool. They own that additional amount to allow controlled flooding should the need arise. The reason the ownership of the lake came up is because of Wolf Creek in KY. When they dropped the lake level it left alot of lake bed areas exposed and alot of items that were lost over the years. The people found scavenging were run off and if they were caught again they were supposed to be arrested for trespassing. One area I have not been able to get an answer to is the river below the dam.

Edit: ACOE is federal property and falls under federal restrictions. Just an FYI.

Edited May 27, 2008 by mdmoseley

[GLOCKMEISTER]

bump for reference...

let me keep looking, i have another one to me before that one... and another about navigatable waterways. Im not so sure I want to dig any further, this is a pretty "keep you out of jail card" in itself, no sense in complicating it any further.

Please feel free to copy and print this and keep it in your boat, this way if your poliet and you show it to whomever might stop you... most likely TWRA then there is no "criminal" intent involved and I dont see how they couldnt agree, if they disagree they still should let you go.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

I know for a fact that doesn't apply to ACOE lakes. The ACOE website says firearms are strickly prohibited on their property. Their property includes the lake and i believe 10 feet above summer pool. They own that additional amount to allow controlled flooding should the need arise. The reason the ownership of the lake came up is because of Wolf Creek in KY. When they dropped the lake level it left alot of lake bed areas exposed and alot of items that were lost over the years. The people found scavenging were run off and if they were caught again they were supposed to be arrested for trespassing. One area I have not been able to get an answer to is the river below the dam.

Edit: ACOE is federal property and falls under federal restrictions. Just an FYI.

not really. When dealing with legal activities like hunting and carrying of a firearm The US Army Corps of Engineers has cooperative agreements with the Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency. There are also easement corridors from State Highways to said waterlines. And it does have to do with a navigable waterway. Im looking thru 15 years of paperwork trying to find it.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

OK..

Heres what we have. First off, copy and put into your boat and if need be use the letter above. Its about all there really is in writing, but its concrete solid.

Heres what else I found out. You CAN carry on the waterways of the State of Tennessee. You can also carry on waterways of reciprocity States as long as that states laws dont specifically prohibit it. The Cumberland and Tennessee navigable and historically navigable river waterways and tributaries are included in this.

The United States Coast Guard has Law Enforcement jurisdiction on those navigable water ways. They fall back to whatever State Law they are enforcing it at the time of a stop. They have given the TWRA law enforcement powers and jurisdictions on those waterways as well. So basically the only two Law Enforcement jurisdictions, besides some local yahoo, that should be stopping you are good to go with your legal State Permitted Carrying of a Firearm.

Back to the earlier questions at hand. The Tennessee River actually goes from Paducha Kentucky river marker 0... to where the Holston and French Broad rivers combine around river marker 652... then you have the "Historically navigable" part that extends way further then that up the Holston and French Broad and their tributaries. You are good to go carrying on either part... technically.

So yes... your good to go on the waterways. If you see a legal park posting then you cant enter the park. (although I think there is a legal exemption here, haven't found it yet)

TVA Property... Well if your absolutely sure the lake is absolutely owned in its entirety by the TVA, and they have 100% Law Enforcement powers on said lake and property... and you see a sign that corresponds with the appropriate law saying NOT TO CARRY FIREARMS... then simply leave your gun at home or go to another lake. Now if the "Lake" in question has or has ever had navigable or historically navigable waterways of the Tennessee or Cumberland River or any other navigable river then thats another story.

U.S. ARMY CORP OF ENGINEERS has no legal Law Enforcement powers on the lakes of any tributary of a navigable waterway. They simply cover flood prevention and flood easements. BTW.. Just Dont try and enter a DAM with a gun!

I complied this information via the State of Tennessee Dept of Safety, the Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency Law Enforcment Div, U.S. Coast Guard Marine Safety Unit (Paducah, Kentucky) U.S. Coast Guard District 8 Legal Dept.(Nashville, Tennessee) and U.S Army Corp. of Engineers.

So thats it in a nut shell. Btw.. still looking for my other letters.

[Guest flyfishtn]

Philip, thanks for posting the letter. I have always been told my the TWRA that it was ok. I fish the Caney (a lot) via boat. Of course, they TWRA is rarely out and they are more interested in poaching than anything else.

[cknight8]

***EDIT*** guess i should read the entire thread before posting, huh? i didnt realize there were six pages. i'm glad to hear that it is legal to carry while on my boat...i was worried that i'd be breaking the law if i continued to do as i had been doing in the past without thinking about it...

Edited May 29, 2008 by cknight98
read further...

[GLOCKMEISTER]

GLAD i COULD HELP, AND MAYBE CLEAR UP THE CONFUSION.

[Guest 270win]

You can carry in your boat any sort of firearm without a handgun carry permit. Fishing is a legal reason in TN to carry a handgun or long gun, just like hunting you don't need a permit. Shotguns with birdshot do wonders on snakes.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

WRONG FRIEND....

Call any of the above mentioned agencys if you dont believe me.

[Fallguy]

I have to agree with GLOCKMEISTER.

There are very few legal ways to carry a loaded long gun off your property, fishing is not one. Hunting is, but you must have a permit for whatever you are hunting, the proper weapon for that game and that game be in season.

You can not carry a loaded handgun off your property PERIOD without a HCP.

[Guest 270win]

(2) By a person authorized to possess or carry a firearm pursuant to § 39-17-1315 or § 39-17-1351;

(3) At the person's:

(A) Place of residence;

( Place of business; or

© Premises;

(4) Incident to lawful hunting, trapping, fishing, camping, sport shooting or other lawful activity;

(5) By a person possessing a rifle or shotgun while engaged in the lawful protection of livestock from predatory animals;

It looks pretty legal to me to carry whatever kind of firearm you wish while taking part in outdoor activities, such as hiking, camping, fishing, trapping and so on.

[Fallguy]

Razorback, you have a very interesting point there. I wonder if it has ever been used as a defense? I may see what I can find when I have time.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

My friend you may have stumbled onto what I have been trying to find. I have seen somewhere that you can carry a weapon while fishing, this must have been where. Thanks. However you see that part that says... "By a person authorized to possess or carry a firearm pursuant to § 39-17-1315 or § 39-17-1351".... there is nothing that allows a person covered by these to carry a shotgun or rifle. Only a handgun, via the carry permit in 39-17-1351. Now the part in section "(4) Incident to lawful hunting, trapping, fishing, camping, sport shooting or other lawful activity;" Now thats interesting, and seems pretty clear. There were no conditions to it, so I guessing it should be a pretty good defense.

Thanks again...

Edited May 31, 2008 by GLOCKMEISTER

[Guest 270win]

I think the incident to outdoors activity would include going to and from your spot. The law does not on the face require one to have an unloaded rifle/shotgun but prohibits intending to go armed and then lists defenses to intending to go armed. Being a judge is one defense, handgun carry permits/written directives, and incident to outdoors activities. There was another one that covered defending livestock with a long gun...of course anyone may openly carry a firearm if none of the other defenses are applicable as long as it is unloaded and not near ammo.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

well we need to look into this, especially the "to and from" part. Again thanks for finding it.

Between the code you found and the letter I have, if someone copied those and kept them with them they should be good to go just about anywhere.

Now Im wondering if postings would hold up to "(4) Incident to lawful hunting, trapping, fishing, camping, sport shooting or other lawful activity;" .... this may be a huge loophole. I wonder what they were thinking when they put that part in there saying "other lawful activity" though. I mean thats confusing... lawful activity could mean anything.

[Marswolf]

Sounds to me like the post office thing. You know...the part they never put on the posters telling you that you can't pack in the PO. The part of the law that says you can carry a handgun for other lawful purposes.

I'm not sure such phrases have much meaning other than you can be let go if you are a buddy of the guy who stops you.

[mdmoseley]

not really. When dealing with legal activities like hunting and carrying of a firearm The US Army Corps of Engineers has cooperative agreements with the Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency. There are also easement corridors from State Highways to said waterlines. And it does have to do with a navigable waterway. Im looking thru 15 years of paperwork trying to find it.

Talked to a friend of mine that is a TWRA officer in the Center Hill Lake region. He said yes that the entire lake is Army Core property and yes technically you shouldn't be carrying there but as long as you are not doing something stupid (drinking, etc) they will let it go. So just don't do something stupid or you could be looking at federal firearm charges.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Respectfully ...

Im sorry, but your friend is simply wrong. Have him call his superiors to get clarification, and read the law. Or you can forward the letter from earlier in the thread to give to him. Have him get in touch with the U.S. Coast Guard that gives him his powers on the lakes.

This is like a regular police officer assuming you have to keep your gun concealed when the law clearly doesn't say it. He's assuming... and he's wrong. If you want I can forward to you at least 10 names and numbers of folks higher up in TWRA and USCG and USACOE that would disagree with him.

THE CORPS SIMPLY DOES THIS....

Planning, designing, building and operating water resources and other civil works projects (Navigation, Flood Control, Environmental Protection, Disaster Response, etc.)

Designing and managing the construction of military facilities for the Army and Air Force. (Military Construction)

Providing design and construction management support for other Defense and federal agencies. (Interagency and International Services)

They technically don't own anything but they control the dams for water resources, flood control and Navigable purposes. They have no Law Enforcment Division. The USCG acts in that regard, and they follow the State Law and allow carrying of firearms.

The waterways are just like the road right of ways, by your thinking you couldnt carry on a US Highway or Interstate.

Edited June 1, 2008 by GLOCKMEISTER

[DaveTN]

They have no Law Enforcment Division. The USCG acts in that regard, and they follow the State Law and allow carrying of firearms.

I’m not arguing with you but there is no mention of the USCG that I can find. Are you saying all those lake patrol Officers are knee deep sailors?

http://www.orn.usace.army.mil/op/JPP/rec/faq.htm

Q: What Rules and Regulations govern the land and waters of the lake?

A: The Rules and Regulations governing public use of the Corps of Engineers water resources development projects are contained in Title 36 of the Code of Federal Regulations. Visitors are bound by these regulations. Punishment of not more than six months imprisonment and/or a fine of not more than $5,000 may be issued to violators. A copy of Title 36 Rules and Regulations is available from the J. Percy Priest Visitor’s Center or the Resource Manager’s Office. An on-line version is provided at the Government Printing Office’s Site.

[/font]

[font=Courier New][Title 36, Volume 3, Parts 300 to end][/font]

[font=Courier New][Revised as of July 1, 2000][/font]

[font=Courier New]From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access[/font]

[font=Courier New][CITE: 36CFR327.13][/font]

[font=Courier New][Page 11][/font]

[font=Courier New]TITLE 36--PARKS, FORESTS, AND PUBLIC PROPERTY[/font]

[font=Courier New]CHAPTER III--CORPS OF ENGINEERS,[/font]

[font=Courier New]DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY[/font]

[font=Courier New]PART 327--RULES AND REGULATIONS GOVERNING PUBLIC USE OF WATER RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS ADMINISTERED BY THE CHIEF OF ENGINEERS--Table of Contents[/font]

[font=Courier New]Sec. 327.13 Explosives, firearms, other weapons and fireworks.[/font]

[font=Courier New](a) The possession of loaded firearms, ammunition, loaded projectile [/font]

[font=Courier New]firing devices, bows and arrows, crossbows, or other weapons is [/font]

[font=Courier New]prohibited unless:[/font]

[font=Courier New](1) In the possession of a Federal, state or local law enforcement [/font]

[font=Courier New]officer;[/font]

[font=Courier New](2) Being used for hunting or fishing as permitted under Sec. 327.8, [/font]

[font=Courier New]with devices being unloaded when transported to, from or between hunting [/font]

[font=Courier New]and fishing sites;[/font]

[font=Courier New](3) Being used at authorized shooting ranges; or[/font]

[font=Courier New](4) Written permission has been received from the District [/font]

[font=Courier New]Commander.[/font]

[font=Courier New]( Possession of explosives or explosive devices of any kind, [/font]

[font=Courier New]including fireworks or other pyrotechnics, is prohibited unless written [/font]

[font=Courier New]permission has been received from the District Commander.[/font]

[font=Courier New][65 FR 6901, Feb. 11, 2000][/font]

[/font]

[mdmoseley]

Respectfully ...

Im sorry, but your friend is simply wrong. Have him call his superiors to get clarification, and read the law. Or you can forward the letter from earlier in the thread to give to him. Have him get in touch with the U.S. Coast Guard that gives him his powers on the lakes.

This is like a regular police officer assuming you have to keep your gun concealed when the law clearly doesn't say it. He's assuming... and he's wrong. If you want I can forward to you at least 10 names and numbers of folks higher up in TWRA and USCG and USACOE that would disagree with him.

THE CORPS SIMPLY DOES THIS....

Planning, designing, building and operating water resources and other civil works projects (Navigation, Flood Control, Environmental Protection, Disaster Response, etc.)

Designing and managing the construction of military facilities for the Army and Air Force. (Military Construction)

Providing design and construction management support for other Defense and federal agencies. (Interagency and International Services)

They technically don't own anything but they control the dams for water resources, flood control and Navigable purposes. They have no Law Enforcment Division. The USCG acts in that regard, and they follow the State Law and allow carrying of firearms.

The waterways are just like the road right of ways, by your thinking you couldnt carry on a US Highway or Interstate.

Here is Title 36 Chapter 111 Part 327. from US Code that pertains to ACOE property. Read 327.13. This includes the lakes created by the dam.

www.usace.army.mil/publications/eng-pamphlets/ep1165-2-316/entire.pdf

Also handgunlaw.us lists ACOE property under the federal restrictions.

I'm not trying to argue with you but all the federal regulations I have found say you can't.

Edited June 2, 2008 by mdmoseley
link was broken. fixed now.

[mdmoseley]

Dang Dave. Should've refreshed. Would have saved me some time. lol.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Ok...

And Im not argueing either, but you guys arent reading what you wanted me to read. Like I said earlier, they have an agreement with USCG and TWRA... Local and State Laws apply... Heres what you guys didnt see.

327.0 Applicability.

The regulations covered in this part 327 shall be applicable to water resources development projects, completed or under construction, administered by the Chief of Engineers, and to those portions of jointly administered water resources development projects which are under the administrative jurisdiction of the Chief of Engineers. ALL OTHER FEDERAL, STATE AND LOCAL LAWS AND REGULATIONS REMAIN IN FULL FORCE AND EFFECT WHERE APPLICABLE TO THOSE WATER RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS.

AND...

327.26 State and local laws.

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this part or by Federal law or regulation, state and local laws and ordinances shall apply on project lands and waters. This includes, but is not limited to, state and local laws and ordinances governing:

(1) Operation and use of motor vehicles, vessels, and aircraft;

(2) Hunting, fishing and trapping;

(3) Use or possession of firearms or other weapons;

(4) Civil disobedience and criminal acts;

(5) Littering, sanitation and pollution; and

(6) Alcohol or other controlled substances.

( These state and local laws and ordinances are enforced by those state and local enforcement agencies established and authorized for that purpose.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

BTW... How do you guys interperate this...

327.8 says you can fish... also

(e) All applicable Federal, State and local laws regulating these activities apply on project lands and waters, and shall be regulated by authorized enforcement officials as prescribed in Sec. 327.26.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

SEC 327.6 SAY THIS....

327.26 State and local laws.

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this part or by Federal law or regulation, state and local laws and ordinances shall apply on project lands and waters. This includes, but is not limited to, state and local laws and ordinances governing:

(1) Operation and use of motor vehicles, vessels, and aircraft;

(2) Hunting, fishing and trapping;

(3) Use or possession of firearms or other weapons;

(4) Civil disobedience and criminal acts;

(5) Littering, sanitation and pollution; and

(6) Alcohol or other controlled substances.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

So basically, like I said State and Local laws apply, and are enforced by State and Local Law Enforcement officers. See...

( These state and local laws and ordinances are enforced by those state and local enforcement agencies established and authorized for that purpose.

Now on actual Dam premises, which is btw real federal property, which also BTW is what the Army is calling the "Water Resources Development Project"... in civilian terms we call it... the Damned DAM! I wouldn't carry.

So guys, instead of looking up 8 year old stuff on the web, pick up the phone and call TWRA, USCG, and USACOE.

Me, I have called all of them and also have Written documentation provided by the appropriate Law Enforcment Agency that would be involved in effecting any arrest on these waterways.... so in short, Im carrying, period!

Edited June 2, 2008 by GLOCKMEISTER