91/30 PU Sniper Zeroing

[Guest foister82]

Hey guys, i recently picked up a 42 TULA 91/30 PU Sniper and will be taking it out this weekend for the first time. First let me say that i have no aspirations of being a Vasily Zaytsev or "uber sniper" however i do want to get the gun sighted the best i can. I do not usually shoot surplus ammo. I have a little bit of barnaul ruskie soft point ammo new production stuff that i also use for m44 hunting, and would prefer to zero with that ammo until i get set up handloading down the road. Are there any tips or expectations i should have? Someone suggested 2 MOA / 100 yards, is that too modest for a surplus sniper? I will be shooting both sling wrapped and sand-bag bench rested. Thanks for any and all input.

[peejman]

What condition is the rifle in? Chamber/muzzle erosion, bore pitting, bolt fit and lock-up, etc.? For typical rifle in pretty good shape (for a 70 year old rifle) 2-3 MOA seems typical. You might get less than 2 if you dial in a hand load. Note that some rifles shoot better with the bayonet attached.

Edited August 10, 2012 by peejman

[Guest foister82]

There is no noticeable erosion (you know how that stuff hides) and the bore is bright and shiny. I'll be honest the barrel doesn't look like it's ever been fired... maybe it was preserved that well or maybe it's a replacement barrel i am not sure. This rifle was a re-purpose, then in 09 was refurbished in Russia and then imported. I'll get some pictures taken this weekend from the range. I will be happy if i can consistantly hit 5-6" @ 100 yrds with factory loads, we'll see. I'm no pro shot, i am lucky to get MOA of 10 on my M44 (bayo folded)

[Jonnin]

Its impossible to say. 2 moa is not sufficient to make a clean kill at 300-400 yards, which was a long shot for that era snipers but they did make a few at those ranges. So in like new condition, I would hope for 1 moa and holding that out to at least 300 yards. That would be about the best you could hope for, if everything is absolutely the best it could be. 2, even 3 moa is probably realistic expectations for your rifle without doing some work on it to improve it. If it is worse than 3, you might start reading about DIY improvements (including trying it with and without the bayo, re-bedding the barrel, etc). You might work with the ammo as well, or just try a few types, sometimes a gun does not like a type of ammo and there is nothing to do about that. If you really want to know what it can do, you might try ditching the period scope in favor of a 10+ power scope -- that can help take the shooter out of the equation (its really hard to hit a 1 inch group at 100 with what, a 3 power scope??). You can always put the old one back on it after you have determined what the rifle is capable of?

[gjohnsoniv]

Mosins can be accurate enough for practical purposes, at least one of mine is. Off hand at 100 yards I can keep all shots in a 3" group, and can hit an acetylene tank most of the time at 350 yards from prone or supported on a bag shooting. I think it will come down to your rifle though.

[Caster]

If you will read up on Vasili, you will find that it was HIM and not the rifle. I don't wanna take away from him, he was better than I ever could be, BUT as a Marksman, he was NOTHING compared to Carlos Hathcock. It was his tactics that landed him large numbers.

As far as the rifle, I disagree slightly with gjohnsoniv, I don't think it will be as much your rifle, as it will be your ammunition. Virtually ANY rifle can be made to shoot well if the ammunition is custom tailored to suit it.

I know it's pricey, but for the kind of accuracy you are looking for, you need to reload. I won't preach you the sermon of casting for that rifle, although you wouldn't believe how well it would take to a cast bullet!!!! Anyway, you need to buy the brass and reload for it. Yes the brass is expensive. Yes you must find a properly sized bullet to use. BUT, then and only then, will you see it's true potential. THe only other two options I can think of are less palatable. Either Norma factory ammo or Surplus 7N1. Either are gonna cost you north of a $2 per shot.

[gjohnsoniv]

Well yes it is a large percentage the shooter, but the rifle does have some effect. By what I was saying Caster is that I have one Mosin that shoots very well and is accurate, the other is not, and both are stock. Though you are very much correct about the ammo Caster.

"I reckon I could shoot a possible with a 400 dollar rifle given I shot it enough." Or something like that, can't remember who said it but I like it.

[Guest foister82]

i will check up on that. i assume the hardest part will either be reloading berdan primed cases... perhaps i could do like a guy i know from work; get some boxer primed PPU and pull the bullet, load with H4895 and a Sierra 125gr SP, then go from there. im just getting into hand-loading myself.

[gjohnsoniv]

You can't reload berdan primed cases. I do like the idea of pulling and reloading though. Is there any load data out there for the cartridge? Caster?

Edited August 10, 2012 by gjohnsoniv

[Jonnin]

forget berdan primed stuff -- you can reload it but finding the primers is a BIG PAIN and getting them out is annoying as well. Just get some boxer brass, and if you treat it well it will last you many loadings per case. So while your initial box of ammo may cost a lot, the next 10+ boxes will only cost primers and powder and slugs --- probably less than most factory handgun rounds cost per shot.

I think there is load data but its in that band of wwII era stuff that is all virtually a 30-06 give or take. I am pretty sure 30-06 data works, but to be on the safe side, cut it down to 75% and work back up?

Edited August 10, 2012 by Jonnin

[peejman]

You can reload berdan primed cases, just do it before they've been fired. Pull the bullet, dump the powder, and reload with your powder and bullet du jour. Milsurp spam can ammo is cheaper than new boxer brass.

[Caster]

It depends on how hard you wanna work. I can link you a tutorial on converting berdan brass to boxer. It ain't easy.

There are people who convert berdan to use a 209 primer. I would only do this for very low pressure cast bullet loads as there's no way to know how the 209 primer will affect pressures.

Try Graff and Sons. They usually have boxer brass.

Also, I would not pull down a boxer primed load, just to reload it. I would shoot it and let it fire form to my chamber, then neck size only. Brass will last longer and loads will be more accurate than full length sizing.

[gjohnsoniv]

Is the Mosin a .308 or +/- .311?

[Jonnin]

its a 312 ish, with some margin of error due to both wear & tear and manufacturing variations. Probably take a 303 brit bullet for most of them, and those are not too hard to find?

you might want to read here:

http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?7-The-Sniper-Rifle-Forum

to find out more from people who specialize in the area. Lots of mosins discussed across the threads, including one guy that has taken his to 1k yards and a couple who have gone to great effort to get tighter groups.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Jonnin

[Guest foister82]

vasili was a definite propaganda machine. The biggest reason i even mention him is because every time i see a thread on a message board regarding the 91/30 pu someone starts throwing out that the buyer watched EotG one too many times

[gjohnsoniv]

Wow, I just saw the thread title WWII vet shoots 5" groups at 1,000 yards. Going to save that one.

[Guest foister82]

great info guys, i definitely have some reading to do

I'll let you guys know how the barnaul stuff works out tomorrow.

[1gewehr]

The bore is probably chromed. Most Soviet small arms after about 1933 had chromed bores. If you get 2-3moa, it's a good shooter. Generally, I've had better results with Czech and Polish ammo than with the Romanian or other Soviet countries' ammo.

Here's the resource site for M-N rifles:

http://7.62x54r.net/

[Garufa]

The bore is probably chromed. Most Soviet small arms after about 1933 had chromed bores.

Mosin's never had chromed bores.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Garufa

[1gewehr]

Mosin's never had chromed bores.

Interesting. I had to double-check as a couple of mine sure looked like it. But you are correct, they are just REALLY shiny!

[mj12]

an acetylene tank

By all means, let me know where you're shooting so I can be on the other side of the county. Nevermind, you're in east Tennessee... I feel safer already.