After a SD/HD shooting

[Slpeod]

I do recommend that everyone buy an umbrella insurance policy. You can be sure you will get sued civilly by the victims family if you killed someone.

Most of these policies run about $100-$200 a year per million in coverage. It also protects you for many many other things such as car accidents, etc.

Definitely agree on this point, I consider this some of the most important coverage I have.

[EastHipster]

The best Self Defense insurance is between your ears

[gregintenn]

How 'bout picking up your empty casings and getting the heck outta dodge?

[chances R]

How 'bout picking up your empty casings and getting the heck outta dodge?

Use a revolver......

[EastHipster]

Great video

Watch this it may help

[DaveS]

2) Don't disturb anything that could be considered as evidence. I have no formal medical training, so I don't feel as if I could help my assailant if he is still alive. Thoughts on this?

You need to be doing SOMETHING! T-Shirt, rag, finger in the bullet hole something! Try to save the dudes/dudettes life...It will go in your favor later on! Don't shoot someone and let them lay there without aid...I don't think that would go in your favor at all! Especially if IT is still alive.

[Stegall Law Firm]

You need to be doing SOMETHING! T-Shirt, rag, finger in the bullet hole something! Try to save the dudes/dudettes life...It will go in your favor later on! Don't shoot someone and let them lay there without aid...I don't think that would go in your favor at all! Especially if IT is still alive.

That's crazy. I'm not touching them. I think it would be very uncomfortable to sit there and watch someone bleed out, but I am not going to get near a person who just tried to seriously harm or kill me. I think I'd just keep an eye on them and say sorry dude, ambulance is coming.

Most of the comments here are pretty good from a legal point of view. Regarding statements...if it was absolutely, positively a 100% justified shooting, attacker's weapon is still in his hand, I might give a cursory statement right then and there but I'm not going to say yeah I'll come in tomorrow and talk. That's probably the last thing that I care to do. If they call you the next day or a few days later and say we want you to come down and give a statement, get a lawyer because that means charges are coming. They want you to come in only so they can formally charge you.

I don't think having insurance would be admissible, or could be used against you. If it could, people wouldn't have insurance.

[DaveS]

That makes sense Sir. I'm thinking along the line of the accusation of trying to "Kill" someone. I'll do what I think is right at the time. However, I practice "double tap" to the fore head...so, not much first aid there! But I will try everything I can to save a life. Kinda what I was trained to do.

Thank you for your reply!

Dave S.

Edited August 9, 2012 by DaveS

[Guest BungieCord]

I will not ground my weapon before the police arrive because my gun was all that kept me from harm before the shooting. Why in heaven's name would I disarm after the shooting to wait for the police? The only thing that's changed is that I have neutralized one threat. One threat. That does not guarantee my safety until the police arrive. What if my attacker's Uncle Cletus shows up two minutes before the police do, and he's brought his thuddy-thuddy, a sawzall and a grudge?

In addition, it introduces potential evidentiary problems if you stash the gun "someplace safe" to wait on the B&W.

As soon as the threat is neutralized, here's my plan:

1) Scan 360° for additional threats

2) RELOAD

3) Holster

4) Call my attorney

5) Call 9-1-1

6) Resume scanning while awaiting the B&W

It doesn't matter that I gave my entire CV to the dispatcher, it could be that all Officer Bob got from dispatch was was "Shots fired, bus en route," and the address. Or it could be that Officer Bob moonlights as a bouncer in Printer's Alley, this is his 11th call of the shift and he was spazzed out three calls ago. So my first objective when the police arrive is to distinguish myself from the attacker.

"I'm the one who called it in."

Officer Bob knows that criminals rarely call the police to report their own crimes, so this starts you down the road to victimhood.

Then I point to the attacker and say, "He tried to murder me."

The word "murder" in this context is critical because that word is then certain to find its way into Officer Bob's report. Under these circumstances, even the most incompetent attorney could get that statement admitted as an excited utterance. So if this goes to trial, I just have given my attorney the tools to link my attacker's name and the word "murder" in the minds of the jurors.

"I want him arrested. I will sign the complaint."

Now I'm categorizing my attacker's acts as criminal, which goes to justification. It also reinforces my contention that I am the victim of a criminal attack and he is/was the attacker. It doesn't matter that I just carved a canoe in his head with my .44 AutoMag because I do not have the medical standing to determine that he's dead.

If there is any crucial evidence that might disappear, this is where I point it out. "That's his gun. This is where his bullet struck the wall. That's the laptop I caught him stealing from my car. He and that guy over there in the plaid shirt came in together." Don't reminisce, don't spin yarns and don't editorialize, just make short, succinct statements of fact.

Then I'll tell the officers that I'll be happy to cooperate with their investigation once legal counsel is present. Then I STFU.

Officer Bob might have been your running buddy back in the day but this is not a traffic stop, this is a homicide. A homicide. This will draw attention WAY above a patrolman's paygrade. Everything you say or do in Officer Bob's presence will wind up on the desk of a prosecutor in the DA's office. So it might look like I'm talking to Officer Bob, but I'm not, I'm talking to an ADA ...through an interpreter. My worst nightmare is that this ADA's butt is in a crack and he's under pressure to draw blood, or he has political ambitions and hopes to base his change of careers on my case. I don't intend to help him.

In summary:

1. Greet the police

2. Identify the attacker

2b. He tried to MURDER me and I want him arrested

3. Point out essential items of evidence

4. Laywer up

5. Shut up

Expect to be cuffed, stuffed and booked. If you've sold them on the "victim" bit, if you're a known good guy and the facts bear out justifiable self defense, you might be released OR, but don't count on it. If you aren't that lucky, be aware that many jurisdictions in Tennessee will accept a lien on property as bail. If you're a property owner or can get one to sign for you, that saves you thousands of dollars compared to a bail-bondsman's 10% bonding fee. This might be state wide policy, I don't know, but I do know to a certainty (don't ask how) that some jails keep a copy of the county tax record expressly for that purpose. DO NOT call a bondsman until you've checked it out.

Edited August 10, 2012 by BungieCord

[Guest bkelm18]

You need to be doing SOMETHING! T-Shirt, rag, finger in the bullet hole something! Try to save the dudes/dudettes life...It will go in your favor later on! Don't shoot someone and let them lay there without aid...I don't think that would go in your favor at all! Especially if IT is still alive.

Um, no. I am not an EMT or trained in trauma medicine. I am not touching them. At all.

[Oh Shoot]

...Expect to be cuffed, stuffed and booked.

I wouldn't expect that at all, myself.

- OS

[TMF]

You need to be doing SOMETHING! T-Shirt, rag, finger in the bullet hole something! Try to save the dudes/dudettes life...It will go in your favor later on! Don't shoot someone and let them lay there without aid...I don't think that would go in your favor at all! Especially if IT is still alive.

If someone just got some holes in them there is a good reason for it. If they are still alive it means they are still a potential threat and are going to be treated as such until authorities arrive. I don't much care about what happens afterward if I'm fearing for my life right now. People shoot folks in self defense all the time and don't do squat to help their assailant and they have no issues.

[Seabeejason]

Watch this it may help [media=]

[/media]

Great video. Very useful information.

[DaveTN]

From the first Officer on the scene, through the Detectives, to the DA; people are going to making decisions about you that will ultimately determine if you go to trial or not.

There is nothing wrong with saying you want to talk to your attorney; but you better be able to make that happen.

I’ve never taught a handgun carry class and I don’t practice law, but I’ve been a responding Officer on several shootings and homicides. You can’t stand silent when there is a dead body on your living room floor and think the cops are going to let you come in when it’s convenient for you.

Have a plan. And have a plan that involves something other than watching an internet video of an attorney telling you not to say anything.

[45guy]

My experience is that most cops are more dishonest than the people they arrest and would tell any lie to secure a convection. Always have your attorney present when talking to the police. No matter how innocent you are.

Edited August 11, 2012 by 45guy

[midtennchip]

First, I am not offering legal advice in this post. I am also affiliated with the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network, so take that as you believe appropriate.

The video of the law professor is good, but I personally believe a self-defense shooting is simply different than almost every other criminal situation. The Network, as part of its benefit package, provides 5 excellent videos on these issues. Massed Ayoob handles one of them and his advice is the best I have heard on this. I think the videos alone are worth the membership cost.

I would NOT, under any circumstances, start blurting out all the details of the situation. You will NOT be in a state of mind to do that. Most LEO policies include a 24 or 48 hour period after an officer involved shooting before questioning the officer. If that is the standard for LEOs, it is a good place to start for a self-defense shooting. However, I do believe you need to give some information to put officers on notice that it was a self-defense shooting. It sets the stage of 2 fronts: the mindset of the officers and preservation of evidence. Ayoob goes into detail on this, so I won't do that here, but there are numerous instances of evidence disappearing from a scene because the officers didn't search a wide enough area (I.e., the area where the assailant came from).

Finally, some of the so-called experts on this (including several who have written books on it) are just dead wrong. I read 2 books given to me by a client and the suggestions were downright dangerous. The author simply didn't understand the different between an affirmative defense and the "innocent until proven guilty" rule.

Edited August 11, 2012 by midtennchip

[midtennchip]

Personally, I'm of the mind that the easier I make it on the responding officers, the better off I'll be. I'll tell them I was in fear of my life and I will lay out the series of events exactly how they happened. If they start asking questions that go into "dangerous" territory, I'll ask to speak to my lawyer before going any further.

Please don't take offense, but I highly doubt you would know when the questions get into the "dangerous territory." You simply will not have all your mental faculties at that one, but as the law professor video shows, in seeming innocent questions can be a problem.

[Guest bkelm18]

Please don't take offense, but I highly doubt you would know when the questions get into the "dangerous territory." You simply will not have all your mental faculties at that one, but as the law professor video shows, in seeming innocent questions can be a problem.

Thanks, but I'll take my chances.

[Guest bigbluedodge03]

Out of curiosity what actually happens to your firearm after a SD shooting...after the leo's arrive. For example, you request to be seen by a hospital does the leo take possession of the firearm and maybe you have to pick it up at the station? I've always wondered.

[TMF]

Out of curiosity what actually happens to your firearm after a SD shooting...after the leo's arrive. For example, you request to be seen by a hospital does the leo take possession of the firearm and maybe you have to pick it up at the station? I've always wondered.

The Sheriff's Department took my uncle's Taurus away when he shot the dude. They gave it back a short time later when the DA said he wasn't going to charge him for shooting the guy.

[Guest bigbluedodge03]

I sort of figured that might be what happened but I wasn't sure. I've only been carrying since march, trying to get as much info as possible.

[gregintenn]

You need to be doing SOMETHING! T-Shirt, rag, finger in the bullet hole something! Try to save the dudes/dudettes life...It will go in your favor later on! Don't shoot someone and let them lay there without aid...I don't think that would go in your favor at all! Especially if IT is still alive.

That makes sense Sir. I'm thinking along the line of the accusation of trying to "Kill" someone. I'll do what I think is right at the time. However, I practice "double tap" to the fore head...so, not much first aid there! But I will try everything I can to save a life. Kinda what I was trained to do.

If there is still life in him, you should still be shooting. Why would you shoot someone to turn around and attempt to save their life in the next instant? Wouldn't a threat still be a threat until it is neutralized? What could happen that would make you determine the person is no longer a threat? If shooting was necessary, I surely wouldn't want to get within arms reach of him.

[Hershmeister]

I will stress again that folks should be far more concerned about a civil case than a criminal case if you were justified. The standards for guilt are much lower in a civil trial (think OJ Simpson). A guilty verdict in a civil trial wont send you to jail but can result in bankrupting you and your family.

I'm not an attorney and you should not consider this legal advice

It would be great if one of our TGO attorneys chimed in on this point

[Guest BungieCord]

I will stress again that folks should be far more concerned about a civil case than a criminal case if you were justified. The standards for guilt are much lower in a civil trial (think OJ Simpson). A guilty verdict in a civil trial wont send you to jail but can result in bankrupting you and your family.

I'm not an attorney and you should not consider this legal advice

It would be great if one of our TGO attorneys chimed in on this point

Title 39 Criminal Offenses

Chapter 11 General Provisions

Part 6 Justification Excluding Criminal Responsibility

Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-11-622 (2012)

39-11-622. Justification for use of force -- Exceptions -- Immunity from civil liability.

(a) (1) A person who uses force as permitted in §§ 39-11-611 -- 39-11-614 or § 29-34-201, is justified in using such force and is immune from civil liability for the use of such force, unless:

(A) The person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in § 39-11-106 who:

(i) Was acting in the performance of the officer's official duties; and

(ii) Identified the officer in accordance with any applicable law; or

(iii) The person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer; or

( B The force used by the person resulted in property damage to or the death or injury of an innocent bystander or other person against whom the force used was not justified.

( b The court shall award reasonable attorney's fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by a person in defense of any civil action brought against the person based upon the person's use of force, if the court finds that the defendant was justified in using such force pursuant to §§ 39-11-611 -- 39-11-614 or § 29-34-201.

HISTORY: Acts 2007, ch. 210, § 3.

Edited August 13, 2012 by BungieCord

[Guest bkelm18]

Title 39 Criminal Offenses

Chapter 11 General Provisions

Part 6 Justification Excluding Criminal Responsibility

Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-11-622 (2012)

39-11-622. Justification for use of force -- Exceptions -- Immunity from civil liability.

(a) (1) A person who uses force as permitted in §§ 39-11-611 -- 39-11-614 or § 29-34-201, is justified in using such force and is immune from civil liability for the use of such force, unless:

(A) The person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in § 39-11-106 who:

(i) Was acting in the performance of the officer's official duties; and

(ii) Identified the officer in accordance with any applicable law; or

(iii) The person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer; or

( B The force used by the person resulted in property damage to or the death or injury of an innocent bystander or other person against whom the force used was not justified.

( b The court shall award reasonable attorney's fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by a person in defense of any civil action brought against the person based upon the person's use of force, if the court finds that the defendant was justified in using such force pursuant to §§ 39-11-611 -- 39-11-614 or § 29-34-201.

HISTORY: Acts 2007, ch. 210, § 3.

People read that and think you will be safe from civil action if your shooting was justified. Not true. You can still be sued. However if you win the civil suit, the other party will have to pay your legal fees and such.