Private long gun sale to Florida resident. Is it legal?

[Oh Shoot]

NM

Edited August 6, 2012 by OhShoot

[Oh Shoot]

NM

[JayC]

The only way that works is if you can sell the gun to the TN FFL, then the FFL sells the gun to the FL friend. The only way a FL resident can legally receive a long gun for ownership in the state of TN is to buy it from a TN FFL. And no way to do so with a handgun at all.

Not saying it couldn't work, but of course there's little incentive for the gun store to do that unless it makes a profit on the sale.

- OS

I'm not sure that is what the law says... it just says the transfer (purchase) must take place at the FFL's store, and the sale must conform to TN and FL state gun laws.

When I purchase a gun from out of state, the FFL here in TN doesn't 'own' the firearm, he just transfers it to me. No reason under federal law the FFL must purchase a long gun from me, to transfer it to a third party.

While I'm not very familiar with the FFL's rules and regulations, I'm not awar of any state (TN) or federal law that states an FFL must own the firearm to do the transfer.

[Oh Shoot]

I'm not sure that is what the law says... it just says the transfer (purchase) must take place at the FFL's store, and the sale must conform to TN and FL state gun laws.

When I purchase a gun from out of state, the FFL here in TN doesn't 'own' the firearm, he just transfers it to me. No reason under federal law the FFL must purchase a long gun from me, to transfer it to a third party.

While I'm not very familiar with the FFL's rules and regulations, I'm not awar of any state (TN) or federal law that states an FFL must own the firearm to do the transfer.

Nobody has claimed that the FFL must buy the firearm and resale it. I said it was the only possible workaround for a TN resident to legally get a firearm to an out of state resident for his ownership, and that individual take possession of it in TN. And of course I wish I'd never said it because the statement has only been misconstrued.

You as an individual can't sell a firearm to an out of state resident unless he takes possession of it thorough a FFL in his home state. You can't buy one from him in his state. I've said this every way I know. You disagree also?

If so, I put it this way: I'm a South Carolina resident. I want to buy your rifle while visiting here in TN. What are your legal options to sell it to me?

- OS

Edited August 7, 2012 by OhShoot

[JayC]

Nobody has claimed that the FFL must buy the firearm and resale it. I said it was the only possible workaround for a TN resident to legally get a firearm to an out of state resident for his ownership, and that individual take possession of it in TN. And of course I wish I'd never said it because the statement has only been misconstrued.

You as an individual can't sell a firearm to an out of state resident unless he takes possession of it thorough a FFL in his home state. You can't buy one from him in his state. I've said this every way I know. You disagree also?

If so, I put it this way: I'm a South Carolina resident. I want to buy your rifle while visiting here in TN. What are your legal options to sell it to me?

- OS

Go to an FFL in TN, and transfer the firearm to you, by moving it onto his bound book, and moving it off his bound book via a 4473/TICS background check.

My understanding is that under TN law (no clue about SC) that an FFL can transfer long guns to out of state residents as long as it's legal for them to purchase the long guns in their state and here.

The suggestion you made was the FFL would have to buy the firearm from you, and then sell it to the third party... I don't believe that to be correct... they should be able to take possession of the long gun, add it to their bound book, and then legally transfer it to the purchaser without having to take 'ownership' of the firearm.

A couple of examples of this, go order a long gun from an FFL in another state, you pay the FFL for the firearm, it's shipped to a local FFL, the local FFL doesn't own the firearm, you do, they just have to place it in their bound book, then do a 4473/TICS and transfer the firearm to you.

Another example, if you want to sell a number of your guns on consignment, you allow the FFL to move the firearms onto his bound book, and sell them for you to his customers... he doesn't own your firearms, he is just selling them and performing the transfer/sale for you... if some of them don't sell, he would transfer them back to you (4473/TICS)... Ownership never changes, you always owned the guns. (Pawn shops would be yet another example of FFL's not technically owning the firearm, yet still having to do 4473 transfers to give the firearm back to the 'owner').

My point being the 'ownership' of a firearm is different from the transfer of the firearm... an FFL doesn't have to own a firearm to legally transfer it...

Now, could there be a TN or FL state law that would prevent the legal purchase of a long gun to a FL resident? Sure, but it would prevent the FL resident from buying any long gun in TN, both one owned by a TN resident and a TN FFL, the ownership of the firearm is not the issue, you can use an FFL to transfer a firearm.

Edited August 7, 2012 by JayC

[Oh Shoot]

Go to an FFL in TN, and transfer the firearm to you, by moving it onto his bound book, and moving it off his bound book via a 4473/TICS background check.

My understanding is that under TN law (no clue about SC) that an FFL can transfer long guns to out of state residents as long as it's legal for them to purchase the long guns in their state and here.....

Well, that is the question at hand. It's my understanding that an individual can't sell a long gun to an out of state resident period, gun must go to FFL in buyer's state.

I'm perfectly willing to be be wrong, btw, , but this has been my long time understanding.

I just called a couple of FFLs, asked about fellow coming up from Alabama and putting long guns in his hand. Used this example, as I do indeed have a friend down there and we've discussed buying/swapping a few guns, could actually happen .

Bill's Outpost: Guy isn't sure, if came into day, wouldn't know what to do about that, Bill the owner not there.

Coal Creek: Guy says you can sell anything to anybody as long as you're both in TN, doesn't matter what state the other guy is from. LOL! Seriously! Then a long confab with someone else and comes back and says yeah, they can.

Randy's Knife and Guns: Don't do transfers between individuals, only from FFLs sent into state, but long gun would have to be sent to 'Bama anyway unless they sold it.

Personal Defense Options: Eventually after asking someone else, says that yeah, can do it.

Not exactly conclusive. Maybe I'll try some more.

No TGO FFL's see this thread?

EDIT: I put call into Knoxville BATF field agent, got real receptionist immediately who said he'll call me back, will report.

- OS

EDIT EDIT: I'm WRONG WRONG WRONG:

Agent called me back, missed getting his name, but he said that YES, you can transfer a long gun to out of state resident through TN FFL and he can toddle off with it right here in TN.

With the proviso of course, that buyer pass the 4473, and that it's legal in the buyer's home state to do that. He wasn't sure which states have the contiguous state transfer thing, as that of course is not federal. One interesting thing though, is that he said that back when, the contiguous state thing was part of federal law. I forgot to ask him what happens if an FFL tries to transfer something that ain't kosher via state law in the receiver's state, whether there's some automatic thing that cuts in or whether the transfer is denied by BATF or what, though.

So again, my apologies all around, showed my arse on this one. Not a first, though.

Sending PM to 808-South with personal apologies, although if the FL laws that Runco found are indeed still current, he couldn't have done it here legally anyway I reckon. Though the last question there is, what happens if the FFL doesn't know that either?

- OS

Edited August 7, 2012 by OhShoot

[gjohnsoniv]

Out of curiosity, and because I have just skimmed the posts, what about an inheritance? Or what if a relative in another state has a firearm that they want to give to you, and for arguments sake, let's say a handgun and rifle. I'm assuming you would still have to run it through a dealer, but I'm just curious.

Edited August 7, 2012 by gjohnsoniv

[Guest 808-South]

OhShoot,

You provided alot of great info and I appreciate it. I noticed by the buyers phone number as being a FL prefix. So I wanted to be sure of the laws. It was a small $150 sale. I decided NOT to go through with the sale. Also my surrounding gun shops did NOT want to do a ffl transfer unless the purchaser had a TN ID.

Edited August 7, 2012 by 808-South

[Oh Shoot]

Out of curiosity, and because I have just skimmed the posts, what about an inheritance? Or what if a relative in another state has a firearm that they want to give to you, and for arguments sake, let's say a handgun and rifle. I'm assuming you would still have to run it through a dealer, but I'm just curious.

That one is relatively clear, though it doesn't mention any kind of documentation like probate or will to prove it if push were to become shove, so it's not crystal clear how you'd prove it.

[The interstate transfer process]

"shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires

a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other

than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or

receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to

purchase or possess such firearm in that State"

18 U.S.C. § 922 : US Code - Section 922: Unlawful acts

section (1) (3) (a)

- OS

Edited August 8, 2012 by OhShoot

[Oh Shoot]

OhShoot,

... Also my surrounding gun shops did NOT want to do a ffl transfer unless the purchaser had a TN ID.

Yeah, shows that just because they can, doesn't mean they will. Assuming they understand they can in the first place.

Much like shipping guns intrastate, especially a handgun. Perfectly legal, but just try to get it done while still complying with carrier's rules. Hell, with UPS it is actually within their rules, but good luck to ya if you try.

- OS

Edited August 7, 2012 by OhShoot

[gjohnsoniv]

That one is relatively clear, though it doesn't mention any kind of documentation like probate or will to prove it if push were to become shove, so it's not crystal clear how you'd prove it.

[The interstate transfer process]

"shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires

a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other

than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or

receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to

purchase or possess such firearm in that State"

- OS

Assuming that all legal paperwork is in place. So in a case like that you do not have to go through a dealer or do?

[Oh Shoot]

Assuming that all legal paperwork is in place. So in a case like that you do not have to go through a dealer or do?

Do not.

Well, it doesn't say anything about paperwork. What about your granddad in another state that dies intestate but told your grandmother (still living) he wanted you to have all his guns? Can she just give them to you? Burden of proof on you, or the BATF if push should come to shove? Dunno, but it says "intestate succession" so certainly a will isn't required, don't know about probate court documentation or anything.

- OS

Edited August 8, 2012 by OhShoot

[gjohnsoniv]

I meant for sake of argument the paperwork is in place saying they all go to relative "X."

[Oh Shoot]

I meant for sake of argument the paperwork is in place saying they all go to relative "X."

I posted the statute, how could it be other than clear cut in that case?

- OS

[gjohnsoniv]

Oh whoops sorry, wasn't focused when I was reading it and put it out of context in my head.

[runco]

Is this thread still going

[DaveS]

TGO is very clear on not suggesting illegal behavior. Whether you agree with the law or not; whether you could likely get away with it or not, the law stands as it is written. We all affect how the community around us views gun owners every day. Suggesting that you can just "get away with it" paints us all in a bad light.

It will not be tolerate don TGO.

I KNOW it's not tolerated on TGO. My point being...How many of us has ever sold a firearm to someone and NOT know, where they are from or even did a background check as the LAW states. Private gun sales excluded. I don't intend for someone to break our policy and give us a bad name.

That's all that I intended. And if you want to Quote rules Sir....how about carrying past LEGAL POSTINGS.....it's a CRIME under TN LAW...but that seems to be OK here. If you're gonna bust the rule book out Sir...bust it out on EVERBODY!!!

Dave Sayre

Edited August 7, 2012 by DaveS

[DaveS]

.

Edited August 7, 2012 by DaveS

[Reservoir Dog]

Agent called me back, missed getting his name, but he said that YES, you can transfer a long gun to out of state resident through TN FFL and he can toddle off with it right here in TN.

Glad we finally got the official word. I had talked to my local gun shop manager, and he saw no problems with doing that type of transfer. I also placed a call to the ATF office here in Nashville, but did not get my call returned.

[JayC]

Out of curiosity, and because I have just skimmed the posts, what about an inheritance? Or what if a relative in another state has a firearm that they want to give to you, and for arguments sake, let's say a handgun and rifle. I'm assuming you would still have to run it through a dealer, but I'm just curious.

There is a special exception in federal law having to do with inheritance... I'll try and find it tomorrow, but it's basically an exception to all the FFL transfer mess if certain conditions are met.

[Oh Shoot]

There is a special exception in federal law having to do with inheritance... I'll try and find it tomorrow, but it's basically an exception to all the FFL transfer mess if certain conditions are met.

Already posted above in #34 JayC, to save you time.

- OS

[JayC]

Already posted above in #34 JayC, to save you time.

- OS

I should have known you would beat me to it!

Glad we got all this mess straightened out, last thing we need is more bad information running around the community stopping people from legally purchasing firearms.

[Oh Shoot]

I should have known you would beat me to it!

It was already there before you posted about it, so wasn't hard.

Glad we got all this mess straightened out, last thing we need is more bad information running around the community stopping people from legally purchasing firearms.

Yeah. Though it may not be so easy to find an FFL who both understands it and is willing to do it, especially if you're not in a metro area.

- OS