Private long gun sale to Florida resident. Is it legal?

[Guest 808-South]

Ive been looking on line. And cannot find any info. Regarding private long gun sales to a visiting Florida resident.

Does any one have a link or info regarding this issue?

It'll be greatly appreciated.

Edited August 5, 2012 by 808-South

[Oh Shoot]

Ive been looking on line. And cannot find any info. Regarding private long gun sales to a visiting Florida resident.

Does any one have a link or info regading this issue?

It'll greatly appriciated.

Illegal. Period. If you really want a link, you can read federal law:

http://www.law.corne...ode/text/18/922

You'd have to send it down to a FFL in FL, for him to transfer and take into possession there.

- OS

edit: oops, wrong link, corrected

Edited August 5, 2012 by OhShoot

[Guest 808-South]

Thats what I thought. But wasnt 100% sure.

Thank you.

Edited August 5, 2012 by 808-South

[runco]

I found this through the ATF website that took me to the Florida state gun laws:

790.28. Purchase of rifles and shotguns in contiguous states

A resident of this state may purchase a rifle or shotgun in any state contig-uous to this state if he or she conforms to applic-able laws and regulations of the United States, of the state where the purchase is made, and of this state.

Bascially, ATF states its a State right to decide if certain citizens can buy from other states. I know at my local Wally, above the glass case for guns, it shows a map of the U.S. with states colored green and red. Green states can buy long guns (green states) from this store, and red states can not. About 1/2 the country can buy there. I can not recall Florida, but according to the Florida's law, you can only buy from contiguous states. Just in case you do not know what contiguous means:

Contiguous:

adj.

1. Sharing an edge or boundary; touching.

2. Neighboring; adjacent.

3.

a. Connecting without a break: the 48 contiguous states.

b. Connected in time; uninterrupted: served two contiguous terms in office.

References for the above

ATF

http://www.atf.gov/p...tion/index.html

sccroll down, right side under chapters for individual state laws.

Actual Florida law

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-5-2011/atf-p-5300-5-florida-2011.pdf

page #7 of the PDF.

Dictionary for contiguous:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/contiguous

[Guest bkelm18]

I found this through the ATF website that took me to the Florida state gun laws:

790.28. Purchase of rifles and shotguns in contiguous states

A resident of this state may purchase a rifle or shotgun in any state contig-uous to this state if he or she conforms to applic-able laws and regulations of the United States, of the state where the purchase is made, and of this state.

Bascially, ATF states its a State right to decide if certain citizens can buy from other states. I know at my local Wally, above the glass case for guns, it shows a map of the U.S. with states colored green and red. Green states can buy long guns (green states) from this store, and red states can not. About 1/2 the country can buy there. I can not recall Florida, but according to the Florida's law, you can only buy from contiguous states. Just in case you do not know what contiguous means:

Contiguous:

adj.

1. Sharing an edge or boundary; touching.

2. Neighboring; adjacent.

3.

a. Connecting without a break: the 48 contiguous states.

b. Connected in time; uninterrupted: served two contiguous terms in office.

References for the above

ATF

http://www.atf.gov/p...tion/index.html

sccroll down, right side under chapters for individual state laws.

Actual Florida law

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-5-2011/atf-p-5300-5-florida-2011.pdf

page #7 of the PDF.

Dictionary for contiguous:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/contiguous

Not sure if any of that information is current, however it does not apply to private transactions. To purchase a long gun in another state it must come from an FFL.

[runco]

Not sure if any of that information is current, however it does not apply to private transactions. To purchase a long gun in another state it must come from an FFL.

I stand corrected, and I agree for a "PRIVATE" sale, duh the topic heading. I found this on ATF's web site for a Private Sale:

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922((3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Here is the actual ATF link:

http://www.atf.gov/f...icensed-acquire

[Reservoir Dog]

Ive been looking on line. And cannot find any info. Regarding private long gun sales to a visiting Florida resident.

Does any one have a link or info regarding this issue?

It'll be greatly appreciated.

Contact your local gun shop and see if they are willing to transfer the long gun. You would transfer it to your local shop, then the buyer would do a 4473 and TICS at the store, and complete the transfer there. That is another option to sending it to an FFL in the buyer's state.

[DaveS]

Ive been looking on line. And cannot find any info. Regarding private long gun sales to a visiting Florida resident.

Does any one have a link or info regarding this issue?

It'll be greatly appreciated.

Sometimes, "nothing" is a good thing to ask! You could have made your sale and been done!

Dave

[Oh Shoot]

Contact your local gun shop and see if they are willing to transfer the long gun. You would transfer it to your local shop, then the buyer would do a 4473 and TICS at the store, and complete the transfer there. That is another option to sending it to an FFL in the buyer's state.

The only way that works is if you can sell the gun to the TN FFL, then the FFL sells the gun to the FL friend. The only way a FL resident can legally receive a long gun for ownership in the state of TN is to buy it from a TN FFL. And no way to do so with a handgun at all.

Not saying it couldn't work, but of course there's little incentive for the gun store to do that unless it makes a profit on the sale.

- OS

Edited August 5, 2012 by OhShoot

[Guest bkelm18]

Sometimes, "nothing" is a good thing to ask! You could have made your sale and been done!

Dave

Yep and broken federal law to boot.

[Oh Shoot]

Yep and broken federal law to boot.

And the TGO law against promoting such.

- OS

[Reservoir Dog]

The only way that works is if you can sell the gun to the TN FFL, then the FFL sells the gun to the FL friend. The only way a FL resident can legally receive a long gun for ownership in the state of TN is to buy it from a TN FFL. And no way to do so with a handgun at all.

Not saying it couldn't work, but of course there's little incentive for the gun store to do that unless it makes a profit on the sale.

- OS

Well, I know it won't work with a handgun. That is why I said "long gun" in my post.

Gun stores do transfers all the time. If you buy from Bud's Gun Shop, the gun is simply transferred to your LGS, which in tun transfers it to you via 4473/TICS. There is no selling or buying to (or from) the local dealer, all you do is pay a fee for their service. I am not aware of any restriction about out-of-state residents doing that if they are temporarily visiting another state, but I may be wrong. Can you post the law/regulation that backs up what you are saying?

EDIT: After rereading your post, I guess you are talking about the financial aspects to the dealer versus the legal aspects. I am sure the transferring dealer would charge his normal transfer fee for this, and I would expect that.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Reservoir Dog

[Oh Shoot]

Well, I know it won't work with a handgun. That is why I said "long gun" in my post.

Gun stores do transfers all the time. If you buy from Bud's Gun Shop, the gun is simply transferred to your LGS, which in tun transfers it to you via 4473/TICS. There is no selling or buying to (or from) the local dealer, all you do is pay a fee for their service. I am not aware of any restriction about out-of-state residents doing that if they are temporarily visiting another state, but I may be wrong. Can you post the law/regulation that backs up what you are saying?

EDIT: After rereading your post, I guess you are talking about the financial aspects to the dealer versus the legal aspects. I am sure the transferring dealer would charge his normal transfer fee for this, and I would expect that.

None of that applies here.

A TN FFL can NOT transfer a long gun (or a handgun, of course) from a TN resident to a resident of another state.

You yourself can only have a gun from Bud's transferred to you through a FFL in TN. You can't have it sent to Florida and transferred to you there. Same applies for private sales. You cannot go to a Nashville FFL and transfer a gun you've sold to someone who is a resident of another state.

The 4473 for transfer must be run by an FFL in the recipient's state of residence, unless it is sale of a long gun by an FFL (and some few states limit long gun sales to only adjoining state's residents also).

Perhaps the simplest way to put it -- there is no legal way for YOU to sell any firearm to a resident of another state and him take possession of that firearm in TN.

Get it?

- OS

Edited August 5, 2012 by OhShoot

[DaveS]

And the TGO law against promoting such.

- OS

TGO has NO LAW about being quite and keeping your pie hole shut, do they?

Dave S.

[Oh Shoot]

TGO has NO LAW about being quite and keeping your pie hole shut, do they?

Dave S.

As I understand it, TGO would advise doing exactly that, as opposed to offering suggestions for violating the law.

- OS

[Reservoir Dog]

Get it?

No, not really. Where are you getting that the dealer in TN has to be selling the firearm to the out-of-state resident?

[Oh Shoot]

No, not really. Where are you getting that the dealer in TN has to be selling the firearm to the out-of-state resident?

Sigh.

I only mentioned it because it's the only way YOU could (sort of) sell a firearm to resident of another state, and he take possession of it in TN.

YOU would have to sell it to the FFL and the FFL would SELL it to the out of state resident (long gun only). A FFL may SELL a long gun to a resident of another state. YOU can not.

YOU can not sell any gun to resident of another state and he take possession of it in TN in any way. A TN FFL can not make that happen, either.

If you still don't get it, I truly give up. Let someone else try.

- OS

Edited August 6, 2012 by OhShoot

[Reservoir Dog]

Sigh.

It's the only way YOU could (sort of) sell a firearm to resident of another state, and he take possession of it in TN.

YOU would have to sell it to the FFL and the FFL would SELL it to the out of state resident (long gun only). A FFL may SELL a long gun to a resident of another state. YOU can not.

YOU can not sell the same gun to resident of another state and he take possession of it in TN in any way.

If you don't get it, I truly give up. Let someone else try.

- OS

Okay. Maybe someone else will answer my question.

You are saying the local dealer has to buy and sell the gun himself. I ask again: Where are you getting that? What law says a dealer may only acquire a firearm by buying it? What law says a dealer may only sell a gun to an out-of-state resident? I am not trying to be difficult, but the laws I am reading would seem to allow a firearm transfer like I originally described. However, if I am wrong, I would like to see the law that prohibits that type of transfer.

I am looking at the following: 922(a)(3); 922(a)(5); and 922( b ) (3).

Edited August 6, 2012 by Reservoir Dog

[Oh Shoot]

...I am looking at the following: 922(a)(3); 922(a)(5); and 922( b ) (3).

Okay, last bite, really.

You just documented it yourself. Read all sections more carefully.

Then go by your fav Nashville FFL for a real world interpretation if necessary.

- OS

Edited August 6, 2012 by OhShoot

[Reservoir Dog]

You just documented it yourself. Read all sections more carefully.

Then go by your fav Nashville FFL for a real world interpretation if necessary.

I have carefully read all the sections I cited, and the exceptions in each one would seem to allow what I stated.

I am not looking for an interpretation, I like to go by what the law actually says. Again, I just don't see where it would be prohibited.

[Oh Shoot]

I have carefully read all the sections I cited, and the exceptions in each one would seem to allow what I stated.

I am not looking for an interpretation, I like to go by what the law actually says. Again, I just don't see where it would be prohibited.

Okay, you got me one more time, can't believe it. I should charge for this.

If the 922 verbiage is too dense, you can get plainer Engleesh in the pertinent CFRs also:

27 CFR 478.29 and CFR 478.30.

Says same thing, just more straightforward.

http://www.law.corne.../text/27/478.29

http://www.law.corne.../text/27/478.30

From BATF FAQs (which are not infallible, but correct here):

Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922((3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

http://www.atf.gov/f...censed-transfer

- OS

Edited August 6, 2012 by OhShoot

[runco]

Since I played earlier today, I will be the huckleberry again. According to ATF, you can only acquire or take possession of a firearm from a non-FFL in your state of residence period

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922((3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]. If you are a Florida resident, and desire to take possession of a firearm (long gun) out of state, you may only acquire from a FFL and in accorance to Florida state laws, 790.28., i.e. you may only take possessions from a Florida FFL, Georgia FFL, and Alabama FFL. To help better explain, here are some examples:

Example 1

Florida resident visiting Tennessee, finds a long gun in Tennessee from a private individual. According to federal laws, the buyer can not acquire (take possession) of this gun in Tennessee. The only choice the buyer has is for the private individual (seller) to deliver the long gun to a FFL in FL, GA, or AL. From what I am reading there is no other way. I see nothing that states the seller must sell the gun to a FFL. Acquire I believe means to take possession, not purchase. So you can still pay the private individual individually, but you can not take possession of the firearm in Tennessee. Purchase and acquire have different meanings.

Example 2

Florida resident visiting Tennessee, finds a long gun in a local gun shop (FFL), Fla resident can purchase the gun, but can not take possession in Tenneessee. The Florida resident must make arrangement for the long gun to ship direclty from the Tennessee FFL to either a FFL in FL, GA, or AL. There the buyer can take possession as per Florida State law.

Example 3

Florida resident visiting Georgia, like example 1, finds a long gun from a private individual. Like the case of Tennessee, he can not take possession from the individual. The seller must deliver it to a FFL in GA, AL or FL, then the buyer can take possession from the FFL.

[MacGyver]

TGO has NO LAW about being quite and keeping your pie hole shut, do they?

Dave S.

TGO is very clear on not suggesting illegal behavior. Whether you agree with the law or not; whether you could likely get away with it or not, the law stands as it is written. We all affect how the community around us views gun owners every day. Suggesting that you can just "get away with it" paints us all in a bad light.

It will not be tolerate don TGO.

[Oh Shoot]

... If you are a Florida resident, and desire to take possession of a firearm (long gun) out of state, you may only acquire from a FFL and in accorance to Florida state laws, 790.28., i.e. you may only take possessions from a Florida FFL, Georgia FFL, and Alabama FFL. ...

As I mentioned in earlier post, there are several states that only allow in-your-hand long gun purchases from adjoining states, but I sure didn't know FL was one of them, thought they were all in Yankee Land.

Federal law certainly allows more restrictive state purchasing requirements, just not laxer ones.

Interesting info, thanks. My work-around example of selling the long gun to FFL and FFL selling to the guy wouldn't have worked in case of a FL buyer anyway.

- OS

Edited August 6, 2012 by OhShoot

[Reservoir Dog]

Okay, you got me one more time, can't believe it. I should charge for this.

If the 922 verbiage is too dense, you can get plainer Engleesh in the pertinent CFRs also:

27 CFR 478.29 and CFR 478.30.

Says same thing, just more straightforward.

http://www.law.corne.../text/27/478.29

Okay. This section says that a non-FFL may not bring a firearm (acquired out of state) back into his state of residence. However, subsection ( b ) says that it does not apply to long guns obtained out of state, as long as it occurred at a FFL's premises. In my scenario, the out-of-state resident is obtaining it at a FFL's premises.

http://www.law.corne.../text/27/478.30

This section says that a non-FFL may not sell/transfer/give/trade a firearm to another non-FFL that does not live in the same state. In my scenario he is not doing any kind of transfer to another non-FFL, he is transferring/selling/giving (whatever you want to call it) to a local FFL.

From BATF FAQs (which are not infallible, but correct here):

Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922((3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Again, actually buying it is not a requirement, he may acquire it by other means from the FFL.

http://www.atf.gov/f...censed-transfer

See my replies in red.

Granted, state laws will change the circumstances. I, also, was not aware that FL had a contiguous state requirement. It still seems to me that, barring any state law, my scenario would still be feasible. Again, I may be wrong, but I just don't see it in the law. I will make some inquiries tomorrow.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Reservoir Dog