FN Five-Seven

[Guest Rooster]

A friend of mine bought one of these a few days ago. What do you guys think about them? Seemed like an awesome gun. It was very lightweight. I just can't see paying close to a grand for a handgun.

[TGO David]

My brother keeps flirting with the idea of buying one. I wouldn't want to pay a grand for that handgun (there are plenty that I would) and I wouldn't want to pay the ammo prices for it either.

[SkWaShDeM]

I shot one. I liked it. Mostly because it wasn't my money I heard flushing away when I pulled the trigger. $0.50 per round adds up in a hurry when you're shooting something that recoils about like a .22LR and costs $24.95 for 50 rounds of range ammo. To me, the 5.7 is a .22LR on steroids, crack, and speed, with a better bullet up front for what it's designed to do.

I wouldn't carry one for defense, but I probably will get one eventually just to have one before the anti-gun crowd comes up with some more creative chicken**** that will let them ban it.

[Guest drewi]

No thanks. I'm sure it's a good gun I just don't think it's very practical just yet.

[molonlabetn]

There are alot of arguments and evidence for and against the effectiveness of this particular weapon system (5.7x28mm: Five-seveN and P90).

Here's my take:

Pros:

- Light weight

- High capacity (small, light ammo means more ammo can be carried in the weapon and on the body)

- Low recoil (faster follow-up shots)

- Flat external ballistics (shoots close to POA at longer ranges)

- Marginally better vest & helmet penetration (with restricted ammo)

- Can be cheaply reloaded with widely available light .224" projectiles

- Can questionably be quite effective with just FMJ ammo, due to projectile internal ballistic in-stability (read: tumbling/key-holing), similar to slow-twist Vietnam era M16A1 performance with 55gr FMJ.

Cons:

- Bulky pistol (no smaller than an M9, though lighter)

- Questionable terminal performance of caliber, in general. Identical performance as .22WMR (from rifle-length barrels) with the same projectiles.

- High cost of weapon, accessories (mags) and ammo supplies

- Lack of availability to civilians of premium ammo (SS190 & SS192), which seems to be the only effective ammo available for this caliber.

The big issue, to me, is the terminal performance of the caliber. A 31gr SS190 projectile (similar to a 1/2 size SS109 projectile from a 5.56) at 2133fps has only 1/4 the KE of 5.56 at the muzzle, and bleeds velocity much faster with range, due to lower cross-sectional density. It is essentially as potent at the muzzle as a SS109 projectile is from an M16 after 600yd of flight... The gel tests that I have seen seem to indicate low penetration, >11", even in bare gel. The cavities created are comparatively smaller than those of any premium .45 (or even 9mm) JHP. Compared to 9mm FMJ the difference is marginal... the only advantage going for the 5.7 is better soft-vest penetration (48 layers of kevlar).

I might get one as a survival gun, but only if I could manufacture ammo in bulk, or get SS190 or SS192... and acquire a P90 as well.

I certainly wouldn't carry it. These guns are a novelty item... kinda on the other end of the spectrum from Desert Eagles.

[Guest GlocKingTN]

I looked at one of these a few weeks ago, and it looked like a tactical gun to me, or the one I seen did! But like everyone else said, not for a grand!

[molonlabetn]

I have seen very few of these pistols for sale recently... Have they slowed down production? Or has demand dropped off?

[Branket]

I have seen very few of these pistols for sale recently... Have they slowed down production? Or has demand dropped off?

Interesting you'd say that I've been seeing them all over lately and for less money than usual, $850 at one place IIRC about a week ago.

[molonlabetn]

Yikes... I'm really surprised that these guns regularly sell for more than $800! They have the quality and feel of a sub-$500 gun...

Any extra $850 that I had would find it's way to H&K or Sig...

[Marswolf]

I had one for a while. Bought it when it still came with a letter saying it was only for LE and military.

Actually, it does very well with just the standard street legal rounds. This is what those rounds will do to a Kevlar helmet.

It is really an exceptional round, but it didn't fit what I need. I bought the gun at $650. Saw one a few days ago for $950.

It's a good round for folks like Secret Service. Normally, it has excellent penetration, including through vests of course, but it tends to tumble and stop in the first target. However in one conversation with a SS guy, he told me that although it normally tumbles, it has been know to pass through four people and lodge in the fifth. I assume that was in a test rather than real life.

To me it's a specialized tool. But I do like it.

[molonlabetn]

...However in one conversation with a SS guy, he told me that although it normally tumbles, it has been know to pass through four people and lodge in the fifth. I assume that was in a test rather than real life.

To me it's a specialized tool. But I do like it.

I understand this incident occured in Texas during a SWAT entry, one round of SS190 passed through 4 individuals, and struck a 5th... The original target was subdued with 5.56.

When this exotic cartridge works, it supposedly does so quite well... but so far the only success stories which I have heard were the result of shot placement in vital areas, which would not have been an problem for any caliber with similar energy.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

My Glock 34 holds 20 rounds with the factory +2 19rd mag. So lets see.....20 rds of 9mm CCI Gold Dot or Corbon DPX or 20 rds of essentially 22 magnum...???? Hmmm...Think I'll roll with the Glock.

Anyone remember the Grendel 22mag? How is this any different with the ammo that is available for public consumption in the 5.7? Oh yeah, this LOOKS cooler. That's always important.

And the Secret Service is using it in the P90 SMG. Longer barrel. AND they have the military ammo. So comparing the 5.7 PISTOL and the CIVILIAN ammo that we can get to the P90 SMG and ammo THEY get is comparing apples and oranges.

Again, I'll stick with my current set up.

[dcloudy777]

The original PDW 5.7X28mm concept , which dates back 10 the late 1980s, was indeed a highly specialized beast. The FN P90, and later the FiveseveN, was intended as a personal defense weapon for REMFs in a theater of operations more like "conventional land warfare" than low-intensity conflicts against non-uniformed insurgents like we seem to be fighting these days. In such a scenario (I.E. ground combat against the Warsaw Pact in Western Europe), enemy soldiers would have been soldiers from standing national forces, which would likely be wearing some sort of body armor. Rear echelon types were currently being armed in the main with pistols or pistol-caliber submachine guns, which, with very few exceptions, are incapable of penetrating body armor at all. This left the support troops practically unarmed against combat-arms units. The PDW concept was born of a need to find a weapon system that would penetrate the armor, but still be very small and lightweight as to not overly interfere with the primary mission of the support troops. Basically, any terminal ballistics against armored soldiers was better than nothing, which is what the 9mm cartridge provided.

Now, we gun people being the way we are, we quickly want the same sort of toys the soldiers get to play with, especially when they are funky and sexy looking like the P90. The feds certainly didn't want the armor-piercing rounds in the hands of us mere peasants, so FN developed loads that would not pentrate body armor. What resulted, IMHO, was neither fish nor fowl, too slow to damage with rifle-like cavitation and fragmentation, and without sufficient mass or diameter to create much of a permanent wound cavity. With the original armor-defeating round, its a great concept which has found a definite niche in law enforcement and various armed forces. (Although the HK MP7 and its 4.6X33mm round seem to be doing better in that regard worldwide). With the "safer" ammo, it's pretty much just a novelty, albeit a really cool one (we love shooting our demo PS90 when we can afford it).

DanO

[Marswolf]

Maybe I should mention that the scuffs on that helmet are actually holes through it. The "weak" civilian ammo does a very good job of penetrating vests and helmets.

It has been rumored that the cavity of the round just may have been filled with polymer and increased the penetration. But who am I to say that someone...might have done that.

I've fired the P90 too. Fortunately using my favorite uncle's ammunition. I'm not normally a big fan of full autos in that mode but this one was pretty cool.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

My point was that in CIVILIAN USA that a round that will penetrate body armor or helmets and then leave ice pick like wounds is really not all that useful to us.

And a 22mag will poke holes in UNarmored folks just the same as a 5.7. So why not just carry a 22 mag?

The 5.7 is largely a solution to a VERY narrow set of circumstances that frankly we just do not often face. And if you are NOT shooting through armor, a 22 mag does the same thing.....

But it is a free country .

[dcloudy777]

My point was that in CIVILIAN USA that a round that will penetrate body armor or helmets and then leave ice pick like wounds is really not all that useful to us.

And a 22mag will poke holes in UNarmored folks just the same as a 5.7. So why not just carry a 22 mag?

The 5.7 is largely a solution to a VERY narrow set of circumstances that frankly we just do not often face. And if you are NOT shooting through armor, a 22 mag does the same thing.....

But it is a free country .

Man, why did it take me so much longer to say that??

DanO

[Marswolf]

Some of my targets wear body armor. But I try to use a rifle instead.

As I said 5.7x28 mm is a specialized tool, but a good one if you need it. I thoroughly enjoyed the handgun. It just doesn't fit what I need.

Going on another tangent, you know those little North American 22 pocket pistols? People often buy the 22 mag rather than the 22 lr. With the short barrel, the 22 mag has almost no additional velocity compared to the long rifle version.

We need to think in terms of a weapons system rather than just the mechanics of a gun and the potential of a round. As you mentioned, that gives the P90 an advantage over the PS90 using the same round.

[Guest moreland281]

I love the 5.7 round in both pistol and rifle form.

No recoil, easy follow up shot, and reload its cheaper than 5.56 to load

[Guest c_o_jones]

MGS is going to be selling an AR57 upper that uses the FN P90 mags and ejects brass down through the magwell,

it looks pretty neat, if you want to shoot the 5.7, but don't really want a whole other gun, it could be one way to go...

[Guest moreland281]

yea they have been showing/promoting them for a couple of years now on the FN board

[Guest price g]

I highly suspect the 5.7 pistol to make the ban list the next go around

[nightrunner]

why would you want a 5.7mm ar instead of a 5.56mm ar?

[Moped]

Ask the Secret Service. That's what they are issuing to guards at the White House now.

[Guest cdsusong]

I also have a buddy that has one of these. It shoots great but I too think a grand is way too much for a "new toy". Carry weapon, I don't think so. Great for shooting paper, although it is tough to see the holes from 25m! Great feel in the hand and the functions are easy to get to and use. Price for ammo and availability are going to be an issue when the anti gunners get their way. I believe this gun is already on the "watch list". Maybe when the newness or the novelty wears off I can look at one more seriously.

[Magiccarpetrides]

I have one...they are AWESOME...and the ammo being expensive...well it was considered expensive when I bought the gun (it was my first firearm purchase) but now that all the other ammo has gone up $19.99 for 50rds really dont seem too crazy. I still have about 1600rds at the house. IMHO the pistol is way better then the rifle and Im sorry but anyone who thinks you couldnt drop a BG quickly with a 5.7 hasnt seen what they do to feral boars and definitely has not rapid fired a FiveSeven and seen how controllable SA with 20rds can be. I paid about $900 for mine back in the day with taxes and everything and have no plans on getting rid of it. The SS195 is as effective as the SS192 but is lead free so supposedly longer then 10yrs of storage is out of the question. The fact that it comes with 3 mags is definitely a plus. Also weight is under 2lbs with all 20rds loaded. Size wise it is a lil big for CC though.