EMP would give America 'government by disaster

[Guest No Ammo]

http://www.wnd.com/2012/08/emp-would-give-america-government-by-disaster/

by Steve ElwartEmail | Archive Steve Elwart, P.E. is the Senior Research Analyst with the Koinonia Institute and a Subject Matter Expert for the Department of Homeland Security. He can be contacted at steve.elwart@studycenter.com.

[Sam1]

wow, had no idea one could take out that much!

[WindHawk]

"One Second After" by William R. Forstchen is an interesting read on this subject. EMP is real; the novel is fiction but will provide you a lot to think about.

[Sam1]

But who is going to be delivering that kind of device to do that? Some other government or our own?

It's a possibility that someone will use an EMP device, but consider the logistics that is required for it to

be effective on that large of a scale, and then consider who has that capability before you decide which

direction to run for cover.

Plenty of people have the capability, that's why I have always been a supporter of missile shields. I think we should drop ten billion dollars tomorrow on the technology without even thinking twice.

[mikegideon]

But who is going to be delivering that kind of device to do that? Some other government or our own?

It's a possibility that someone will use an EMP device, but consider the logistics that is required for it to

be effective on that large of a scale, and then consider who has that capability before you decide which

direction to run for cover.

It has to be real high to work. Not sure there are many that can do the delivery. The US can do it, but why would they?

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Barring outlandish paranoid conspiracy theories, perhaps the most obvious would be a nation with space capability, nuclear weapons, and a massive electronics industry which would make giant profit replacing all those fried components...

[Wingshooter]

"One Second After" by William R. Forstchen is an interesting read on this subject. EMP is real; the novel is fiction but will provide you a lot to think about.

I listened to the audio book about a year ago. I still think about it a lot when stocking up on stuff. Good read

[Ebow1]

Barring outlandish paranoid conspiracy theories, perhaps the most obvious would be a nation with space capability, nuclear weapons, and a massive electronics industry which would make giant profit replacing all those fried components...

Well that's no concern. It's not like there's some giant asian country with about a billion people in it that has all those things that we are also massively in debt to as a country an-oh crap.

[gjohnsoniv]

Guess it's time to build a Faraday Cage.

[mikegideon]

Barring outlandish paranoid conspiracy theories, perhaps the most obvious would be a nation with space capability, nuclear weapons, and a massive electronics industry which would make giant profit replacing all those fried components...

Well that's no concern. It's not like there's some giant asian country with about a billion people in it that has all those things that we are also massively in debt to as a country an-oh crap.

You don't bust a nuke over the US so you can sell electronics. We shoot back, or that's the story anyway.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

You don't bust a nuke over the US so you can sell electronics. We shoot back, or that's the story anyway.

That would make an interesting SF plot. Everything is fried and 90 percent of the population will die of starvation. The folks who can still make repair parts did it to ya. Do you bomb em back to the stone age and let most of yer own folks die, or...

I'd probably vote "screw it, bomb em back to the stone age anyway" but the 9 out of 10 who will starve might think otherwise.

[Mike.357]

One Second After gives me the heebee jeebees

[Wingshooter]

Guess it's time to build a Faraday Cage.

I need to read up on it more, but would buried electronics be protected (in theory)? Say, bury some two-way radios, extra ham radio, etc. in a sealed container. I dunno...

[Clod Stomper]

I need to read up on it more, but would buried electronics be protected (in theory)? Say, bury some two-way radios, extra ham radio, etc. in a sealed container. I dunno...

In a sealed METAL container, probably, but I'd think a faraday cage would be just as effective.

When I can, I'm going to build a steel garage to park our vehicles in. And hope that if an EMP hits, we're parked in it at the time.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Clod Stomper

[Sam1]

Guess it's time to build a Faraday Cage.

old/broken microwaves are great for this and storing small devices inside

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Military electronics handed out to the troops-- I know there is exotic hardened gear, surely fly by wire aircraft, drones, radar and missile systems are pretty well hardened? But the routine field gear like uplinks, computers, electronic sights, night vision, radios, helicopter, tank and vehicle electronics-- Is that stuff any more hardened than civilian stuff?

Bro in law was in the army discharged in the 1980's. He liked it fine but they had policy that officers not promoted quick enough eventually had forced retirement regardless whether the fella liked the job or not. A Captain couldn't stay a captain forever and still remain welcome, apparently.

Anyway back in the 80's after he came home, I asked him what they did about EMP and he said they kept spare electronics turned off and powered down. Maybe that is better than nothing but unless the gear was somewhat hardened it doesn't sound like a "sure fire" plan?

[mikegideon]

In a sealed METAL container, probably, but I'd think a faraday cage would be just as effective.

When I can, I'm going to build a steel garage to park our vehicles in. And hope that if an EMP hits, we're parked in it at the time.

Steel (not aluminum) box. Ferrous metal makes the best/cheapest electromagnetic shield. Stuff that is hooked to the power lines is vulnerable because they are efficient long wave antennas. The power grid has LOTS of fuses protecting the transformers, which are the vulnerable components. I need to read more as well. The pulse won't have enough energy to melt the fillings in your teeth. Semiconductor junctions (solid state electronics) are vulnerable because you can kill them with a relatively low voltage.

An electromagnetic pulse isn't voodoo. Making the pulse may be, but from there, the math is well understood. The government has a lot of stuff that's hardened. For example, the new broadcast transmiiter systems (building and all) they're installing for top level EAS use are virtually EMP immune, and they're full of solid state electronics.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Mike, what are the odds of fried vehicle electronic ignition / microcontrollers, fried electric fuel pump, etc? The movies and books assume any civilian vehicle with electronic ignition is so much scrap metal afterwards, regardless whether powered on or off.

Many vehicles have a good bit of steel but dunno if it would be an effective enough shield? A lot of modern vehicles maybe wouldn't run if the dash electronics are fried regardless whether the ignition, microcontrollers and fuel pump survive? My Jeep has plastic roof panels and a great deal of plastic in the dash, and glass isn't much of a shield, so probably the burglar alarm and ignition switching that the vehicle relies on, is probably gone even if the stuff under the hood survives. Probably wouldn't start up or run with fried dash electronics. In addition maybe a pulse that gets into the dash would follow the wiring down into the engine compartment and take out the microcontrollers?

The long cabling runs to the fuel pump and such under the vehicle might be antennas even under all that steel.

Maybe a challenge to shield a consumer vehicle? Now there is a potential product to sell to the paranoid-- Nylon coated fine steel mesh car cover. Maybe just a conventional nylon car tarp with mesh embedded, and a couple of grounding chains that drop down from the corners when draped over the vehicle?

[mikegideon]

Hard to pull predictions off the top of your head. If you know the magnitude vs time of the pulse, and the distance, you can calculate the resulting field at any point on the ground with some pretty good certainty if there's no reflection from atmospheric layers. An electromagnetic field is usually specified in volts per meter. A 1 volt per meter field will induce one volt across a 1 meter wire.

You don't need absolute numbers to realize that the damage will vary dramatically depending on the size of the "antenna". I'm sure a LOT of the work has already been done, or the gov wouldn't have specs on their transmitter buildings. I'm not sure it's available to the public. I've heard the spec, and it was a number. Just don't recall it. Their spec is good enough that I think it includes more localized blasts. All nuclear bombs throw off a whopping EMP. They didn't learn about it with the high altitude test. They leaned about it with the first test (if it wasn't already predicted by the math).

[mikegideon]

A physicist friend of mine actually saw a government EMP testing facility decades ago. It was a huge outdoor EMP generator that they would smack with some serious juice. There's lots of stuff that can be done. You just won't see any of it in your IPOD. If you get any warning at all, kill the main breaker, and unplug everything from the wall.

[Guest 6.8 AR]

It has to be real high to work. Not sure there are many that can do the delivery. The US can do it, but why would they?

That was my other question.

They might in the event of loss of

their power, but that would be sick.

I doubt the Chinese would due to

our retaliation. I doubt terrorists have

that kind of sophistication. They're

still trying for just nukes. Russia, I

don't think so, but you never know

what's on Putin's mind.

That leaves me thinking our own

perverts in DC are the only idiots to

consider such lunacy, so I have my

doubts about an exclusive EMP

attack.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Hard to pull predictions off the top of your head. If you know the magnitude vs time of the pulse, and the distance, you can calculate the resulting field at any point on the ground with some pretty good certainty if there's no reflection from atmospheric layers. An electromagnetic field is usually specified in volts per meter. A 1 volt per meter field will induce one volt across a 1 meter wire.

You don't need absolute numbers to realize that the damage will vary dramatically depending on the size of the "antenna". I'm sure a LOT of the work has already been done, or the gov wouldn't have specs on their transmitter buildings. I'm not sure it's available to the public. I've heard the spec, and it was a number. Just don't recall it. Their spec is good enough that I think it includes more localized blasts. All nuclear bombs throw off a whopping EMP. They didn't learn about it with the high altitude test. They leaned about it with the first test (if it wasn't already predicted by the math).

Thanks Mike

We discussed it a year or two ago but can't recall the numbers or details. CRS disease. Think I recall induced voltage good enough to have decent chance of frying semiconductors between the front and back of a circuit board facing a pulse, and quite impressive voltages across a board edgewise to the pulse.

Think I recall reading that the space pulse is bigger because the burst of radiation stimulates atmospheric layers to make the actual emp, almost like a maser or laser stimulation

[mikegideon]

That was my other question.

They might in the event of loss of

their power, but that would be sick.

I doubt the Chinese would due to

our retaliation. I doubt terrorists have

that kind of sophistication. They're

still trying for just nukes. Russia, I

don't think so, but you never know

what's on Putin's mind.

That leaves me thinking our own

perverts in DC are the only idiots to

consider such lunacy, so I have my

doubts about an exclusive EMP

attack.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

According to the article in the OP, you can do it with a scud if you get close enough. I don't know what makes him think we wouldn't blow the hell out of Iran. A would bet ALL my money that it won't take out our silos OR the secure com links to them. Scary internet articles... gotta love 'em.

[mikegideon]

Thanks Mike

We discussed it a year or two ago but can't recall the numbers or details. CRS disease. Think I recall induced voltage good enough to have decent chance of frying semiconductors between the front and back of a circuit board facing a pulse, and quite impressive voltages across a board edgewise to the pulse.

Think I recall reading that the space pulse is bigger because the burst of radiation stimulates atmospheric layers to make the actual emp, almost like a maser or laser stimulation

Semiconductors junctions can be killed with excess voltage. Doesn't take significant energy. The only way to make a transfomer fail is to melt it, or punch thru the unsulation with a really high voltage and with some energy behind it. That's a tall order when you're talking about millions of transformers. Melting an oil filled transformer is tough, especially with fuses in front of it.

If it mostly blows fuses, it will be devastating (because the grid will crash), but temporary.

Edited August 5, 2012 by mikegideon

[TMF]

Iran can't figure out how to get the donkey porn viruses out of their secure network on the highest tier program in their country. Not sure how they would ever get a scud in our hemisphere without us knowing.