HCP qualifications exemption question

[Guest v3bahumut]

So I finally got around to purchasing a handgun, and went online at the DOS website. I was looking for the qualifications needed for a TN HCP and notices this:

Effective July 1, 2005, Tennessee handgun carry permit law will now allow certain applicants already exempt from complying with firing range provisions of the current statute to also be exempt from any classroom requirements. Those current exceptions are applicants who prove to the department that within five (5) years from the date of application for handgun permit, the applicant has:

1. Been certified by the police officer's standards and training commission, or

2. successfully completed training at the law enforcement training academy; or

3. successfully completed the firearms training course required for armed security guards; or

4. successfully completed all handgun training of not less than four (4) hours as required by any branch of the military.

Now I was honorably discharged from the Marine Corps in July of 2005, so I figured that I would fall under number 4, seeming that I was trained on pistols, rifles, machine guns and explosives, and am proficient in all of them, and all of their safety.

So I took a trip down to my local DOS office, after waiting on hold over the phone for 20+ minutes, only to wait in line for another 20 (Figures).

Anyway, I ask the lady behind the counter if my DD214 would be sufficient, she tells me that she needs actual documentation of my qualifications, including the markings of what I shot.

I ask her if she knows what form this would be, what it looks like, or how I would obtain it. She proceeds to tell me that she has no idea, and to "Call the Marines and ask them"

So, as the Marine Corps keeps really bad records, and I'm sure there is nothing ever recorded saying that I am proficient with a handgun, and my DD214 in inadequate, am I screwed and have to go cough up $110 bucks and 8 hours of my time to take a course I probably could teach?

Sorry for the novel

Edited May 19, 2008 by v3bahumut

[Guest bkelm18]

Yep, it has to be documented on your DD214 or otherwise that you received training with a firearm. Just being in the service doesn't count. Stupid, I know. I tried that one already. Also, the HCP classes don't only teach firearms proficiency, they also teach about the laws regarding self defense in TN, so it's not just about your abilities with a firearm.

[Guest v3bahumut]

I suppose I'll go to the class, if nothing more than to familiarize myself with TN's carry laws.

[John Wall]

I, for one think everyone getting a permit or Guard license should be required to take the appropriate class and qualify with the firearm of their choice, or the one they will carry as a Security Guard.

Being a Law Enforcement Officer does not make one familiar with laws and regulations covering Citizens. An Armed Guard has the same powers or arrest as a private Citizen.

An Armed Citizen should NEVER pursue and apprehend an offender.

LEOS are trained to go after the bad guy, and this will carry over to the Citizen side, especially if they are not required to be at least briefed on laws concerning Citizens.

I train LEOS professionally, and can tell you first hand their Dept's often does not have the budget to give them this training. Many PD's have little budget for ANY training, over what is required by Peace Officer Standards and Training (P.O.S.T.) regulations.

a Disturbing number of advanced and tactical classes I take and give have the Officers paying the tuition and such OUT OF THEIR OWN POCKET!!!!

[Guest Mugster]

If we're talking about what is "right", the 2nd amendment to the constitution gives any citizen the right to carry a weapon, concealed or unconcealed, as they so choose, no training required, imo.

If we are talking about what v3bahumut has to do to pay the state...

Some places will take recent combat experience as a complete substitute, as a buddy of mine found out. I would think a CIB would be more than sufficient. An old scorecard might work. Or if your marksmanship awards are on your 214 or some other document you have laying around, that might do it.

Taking the state mandated class is my recommendation. Cough up the $50 or whatever it is and go get it done.

[Guest bkelm18]

Cough up the $50 or whatever it is and go get it done.

Double that and you'll be in the ballpark.

[Guest FroggyOne2]

I was a Corpsman in the Navy, my DD214 states I won the Pistol Ribbon.. hence my training.. but then that was quite some time ago too!!!

[Warbird]

I am certainly glad citizens are not required to qualify with one weapon and use that. That's the way it could be done when the law was first passed and gave the sheriff's the power. Fortunately that was taken from them 2 years later.

Private citizens are not Armed guards or LEO, their rules are what they are, but a citizen should be allowed to carry what they want and change anytime they want. It is up to each person to be proficient and I have met quite a few who qualified with the gun they carry and I sure wouldn't call them proficient with the training they received.

The cost to exercise your right here in Tennessee is still too damn high. It shouldn't be more than $50. And if you move here you can turn in your permit from another state and get a TN license, unless you accidentally let that one expire, then all of a sudden you have to take everything all over no matter what advanced courses you may have had previous. We have a law and it is better than not having one or the one that was first passed, buit damn I wish it was like Vermont.

[Guest Mugster]

Double that and you'll be in the ballpark.

Ouch.

[Guest Mugster]

I was a Corpsman in the Navy, my DD214 states I won the Pistol Ribbon.. hence my training.. but then that was quite some time ago too!!!

They just want to make sure you won't shoot yourself or somebody else by accident and have some common sense where the law/handguns is concerned. The class is a good idea I think, but if you have alot of firearms experience, I don't know how necessary it is.

Former dive navy by any chance?

[Fallguy]

An Armed Citizen should NEVER pursue and apprehend an offender.

I have to disagree.

If someone takes the purse of the woman with me at Wal-Mart...I'm going to give chase. Not with my weapon drawn or anything like that. But I'm not going to let the simple fact I'm armed stop me from retrieving the purse if I can. I'm not going to draw and say "Stop, or I'll shoot!" or anything like that.

Even if the BG corner's himself I still would not draw and/or hold him at "gunpoint". Only if it becomes a self-defense situation, where I felt I was in imminent danger of great bodily harm or death would I draw my weapon.

But again....I don't think a citizen should have to stand back and watch a crime because he is armed. He just needs to remember he is not a LEO and his weapon is for self-defense of himself (or others if he chooses) not to enforce laws or make arrest.

[Guest canynracer]

I have to disagree.

If someone takes the purse of the woman with me at Wal-Mart...I'm going to give chase. Not with my weapon drawn or anything like that. But I'm not going to let the simple fact I'm armed stop me from retrieving the purse if I can. I'm not going to draw and say "Stop, or I'll shoot!" or anything like that.

Even if the BG corner's himself I still would not draw and/or hold him at "gunpoint". Only if it becomes a self-defense situation, where I felt I was in imminent danger of great bodily harm or death would I draw my weapon.

But again....I don't think a citizen should have to stand back and watch a crime because he is armed. He just needs to remember he is not a LEO and his weapon is for self-defense of himself (or others if he chooses) not to enforce laws or make arrest.

[Guest v3bahumut]

Double that and you'll be in the ballpark.

$110 for a safety class from On-Target in Murfreesboro (20 minute drive)

$60 for a safetly class from Guns and Leather in Greenbrier (45 minutes drive)

$15 for 50 rounds of ammo (G&L says 50 On-Target says 100)

$115 for the permit fee

Too damned expensive to employ my Constitutional rights. I've been very dissastisfied with TN since I moved here from AZ.

[Guest eyebedam]

$110 for a safety class from On-Target in Murfreesboro (20 minute drive)

$60 for a safetly class from Guns and Leather in Greenbrier (45 minutes drive)

$15 for 50 rounds of ammo (G&L says 50 On-Target says 100)

$115 for the permit fee

Too damned expensive to employ my Constitutional rights. I've been very dissastisfied with TN since I moved here from AZ.

On top of that you have to wait dam near 90days to get the permit. I wish they would add about 25.00 expedite fee & let you get it in 2weeks. They would make more money & the mailman wouldnt have to be stalked for so long.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

As a citizen if it doesn't involve you or yours, there is way too much liability to get involved. If you give chase to a robber for example... and your armed... and get into a shootout... It can end very unfavorably for you. That person wasn't a threat too you or a third party any longer... they were fleeing. In this situation what you can do and should do is too different things.

Its simply too much to risk... the person your trying to help should have had a carry permit and handgun.... then they would be able to protect themselves. I know it sounds bad, but thats the way this liberal world has become.

[John Wall]

Glockmeister sees the reason I am against pursuit and apprehension by a private citizen.

Part of the training I give is designed to help avoid losing your shirt in Civil Court to some scumbag you held for the cops.

NOT losing your home, car, life savings, and ability to provide for yourself and your family is Priority One.

Sad, but true.

[Fallguy]

Y'all watch the little old lady get robbed and beat if you want....

I'll help if I can.

True, if he is running away, he is not a threat, so you can't shoot him then. But nothing legally or morally says you can not intervene simply because you armed as opposed to someone who isn't. You shouldn't get into a "shootout" unless the BG is armed as well, and he has become threat.

I am by no means saying go out and look for bad situations to interject yourself into. But I think it is just foolish to say that because you armed you have do nothing. Because even though deadly force is an option (if it escalates to that) doesn't mean it is the only option.

[Guest jackdog]

The majority of citizens in this state are capable of owning and carrying a weapon for self defense. If they choose to fore go this right then I see no reason why I should put my butt or my assets on the line for them. IF they choose to be sheep or victims then it is not my concern. Many may think me to be callous, but the bottom line is I do not carry to defend people who will fully refuse to help them selves. Besides which a great many of these people are anti gun to begin with, so to hell with them.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Stopping an immediate assault on another is one thing but if your armed and you go an chase a bad guy down they will eat you alive in civil court if you have to use deadly force. Trust me they will twist it to make you look like the only reason you gave chase was because you were an armed vigilante. Police officers are legally duty bound to intervene, citizens are not. You can't yous deadly force or the threat of deadly force, or IMHO knowing the probability of maybe having to use the threat of deadly force to affect a citizens arrest.

You getting involved affects allot of people. If you lose the gunfight, who's going to then take care of your family... how will you intervening affect them? If you win and lose everything you have in court, or at the least defending yourself (attorneys aren't cheap) what effect will that have?

Sad to say but our society wont let the good guys win anymore, I wish it wernt true but it is. Its simply not worth risking everything if its not you or your immediate family.

It boils down to If the little old lady was packing it wouldn't be an issue.

Edited May 26, 2008 by GLOCKMEISTER

[Fallguy]

The majority of citizens in this state are capable of owning and carrying a weapon for self defense. If they choose to fore go this right then I see no reason why I should put my butt or my assets on the line for them. IF they choose to be sheep or victims then it is not my concern. Many may think me to be callous, but the bottom line is I do not carry to defend people who will fully refuse to help them selves. Besides which a great many of these people are anti gun to begin with, so to hell with them.

We (or at least I) are not talking about those who choose not to carry. You can't shoot someone for taking a purse. We are talking about getting involved in a non-self-defense situation.....that could become one and the possibly liabilities because of injecting yourself into something that did not directly involve you.

But apparently we need people who don't carry so they can chase down the thug and get the purse back for the little old lady (who even if she was packing couldn't legally shoot a purse snacher). Because all of us that are armed have to just stand and watch or turn our heads and walk away.

Edited May 26, 2008 by Fallguy

[TripleDigitRide]

Not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread, but, the HCP class is a waste of time, and a complete joke.

If you're a complete moron when you walk into the class, you're gonna walk out being the very same complete moron, only you'll have a permit to carry a deadly weapon. Well, you'll have the piece of paper which allows you to get your permit, but you catch my drift.

[Fallguy]

Although there are minimum standards set by the DOS for the class, each class/instructor is different. Some are better than others. However I don't think it has ever been the intention of the class to make you in expert on handling a handgun or the laws in TN.

I'm still of the opinion that one should not need a permit from the state to carry a handgun.

[Fallguy]

Glockmeister, John

I'm not really disagreeing with what y'all are saying. I do agree there is chance for real liability on your part if you choose to help someone. However there is some truth to that whether you armed or not, that is somewhat my point.

I feel it is a choice that each person has to make for themselves based on their conscious and the situation at hand at that time.

I really feel there are times you could help and people never know your armed. If the BG is running right by you, doesn't take a lot of effort to stick out your leg and trip him and doesn't require anyone knowing your armed.

My main goal would be to retrieve the stolen property not necessarily hold the BG for the police. I admit, my feelings are some what skewed on this because of the amount of things stolen from me over the years.

[Guest Grout]

$110 for a safety class from On-Target in Murfreesboro (20 minute drive)

$60 for a safetly class from Guns and Leather in Greenbrier (45 minutes drive)

$15 for 50 rounds of ammo (G&L says 50 On-Target says 100)

$115 for the permit fee

Too damned expensive to employ my Constitutional rights. I've been very dissastisfied with TN since I moved here from AZ.

Looking at Arizona's CCW laws they are the same as Tn,safety class with range time,background check,etc.FWIW $60 for the class at Guns and Leather sounds like a bargain.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

$110 for a safety class from On-Target in Murfreesboro (20 minute drive)

$60 for a safetly class from Guns and Leather in Greenbrier (45 minutes drive)

$15 for 50 rounds of ammo (G&L says 50 On-Target says 100)

$115 for the permit fee

You forgot C.I.S. in Smyrna (very close to Lavergne).

$80 and they happen to be a TGO sponsor...

...I happen to know the guys who own it.