SEMPER FI! The Marines Bring Back An Old Warhorse!!!

[Steelharp]

You don’t need a tool to take down an M&P; I never use one. A 1911 comes with a barrel bushing wrench, but that doesn’t mean it’s required.

So, you pull the trigger, then? I didn't know one could do that.

And yeah, you only need the bushing wrench if the bushing is tighter than it really should be, anyway.

[DaveTN]

So, you pull the trigger, then? I didn't know one could do that.

And yeah, you only need the bushing wrench if the bushing is tighter than it really should be, anyway.

The “Tool†(or as they say in the manual “similar deviceâ€) is to lower the sear deactivation lever. I just do it with my finger. I assume they include the tool for liability reasons in case someone sticks their finger in there and at the same time release the slide and smashes their finger. You don’t need to pull the trigger to take down an M&P.

Edited July 29, 2012 by DaveTN

[graycrait]

To fully disassemble a classic 1911 (Series 70) the only place you need a tool is when you remove the mag release, requires something akin to a small flat bladed screw driver. Some 1911s come with guide rods that rquire an allen wrench or paperclip to get the thing fully disassembled. I've never disassembled a Series 80 with whatever is akin to the Schwartz device. I'll have to do that today.

To fully disassemble a M&P you need a roll pin punch and hammer. And when you fully disassemble a M&P be very careful when you remove the sear, there is a tiny spring under the plunger that puts pressure on the sear. Also, if your M&P has the manual thumb safety be careful of that spring also, it is tiny and has pressure on it. I know, I launched one at the M&P Armorer's course and we never did find that one. It is easier to put the sear spring and sear plunger back in with a small tweezers.

Also on the M&P when you remove the rear sight make sure you pay attention to orientation of the disk that rests on the spring which puts pressure on the striker safety block. Convex side down.

[tercel89]

Graycrait is correct and knows his stuff on both the M&P and the 1911 platforms. I like both platforms. My 1911 runs just fine with ball ammo . I havent even tried hollow point ammo in mine. But as far as weight is concerned and rust resistance and American products are concerned I say I would choose the M&P in 40 or 45 . The weight is way much better , the rust-resistance is way better and the magazines release is reversable for left handed guys/gals.

I have removed a thumb safety on my M&P40 to get rid of it and all I needed that was different than a GLock was a roll-pin punch in order to not flatten the roll pin. That is the only thing on the M&P that I dont like , the roll pins.

Now if we could choose ANY country's pistol for our military, I would choose the Glock 34, 35, or the 21 .

[Patton]

Is there any data out there how well a .40 ball round (180gr) does for knockdown power? Cause that's what you get to use in the military, just ball ammo. That's where the .45ACP (230gr) shines and where the 9mm (124gr) sucks.

40sw ball ammo is almost guaranteed to over penetrate due to its velocity. The NATO 9 mm ammo is higher pressure than standard 9mm fmj. I have no clue what kind of pressure is behind the military's 45 acp loads.

[TMF]

40sw ball ammo is almost guaranteed to over penetrate due to its velocity. The NATO 9 mm ammo is higher pressure than standard 9mm fmj. I have no clue what kind of pressure is behind the military's 45 acp loads.

All the 9mm I came by in the Army supply system was either American Eagle or Winchester... the same kind they sell in the 100 rd boxes at Walmart.

[Sam1]

Is there any data out there how well a .40 ball round (180gr) does for knockdown power? Cause that's what you get to use in the military, just ball ammo. That's where the .45ACP (230gr) shines and where the 9mm (124gr) sucks.

Why did S&W design a pistol that requires a tool for take down? I had no idea that was the case. I actually thought that it would be a good candidate pistol for the Military, but I can't see them adopting a pistol that requires a tool for take down. What happens id you lose the tool in the field and you can't perform maintenance on the pistol?

That pretty much sums it up

[DMark]

.... All the 9mm I came by in the Army supply system was either American Eagle or Winchester... the same kind they sell in the 100 rd boxes at Walmart.

Army issue is actually 124 grain M882 9mm NATO which is pressured at 36,500 PSI. When compared to most standard 115 grain, 34,083 PSI 9mm ammo as found at Walmart, the 9mm NATO ammo is running a higher pressure, analogous to a 9mm +P load. The requirement for this higher pressure round can be traced back to the need for it to run in subguns.

You'll find that an issued M9 will often short stroke when using the lower pressure "Walmart" ammo. The spring setup is for the higher pressure 9mm NATO.

Academy Sports often stocks the M882 and I have seen it pop up at Walmart ever so often. And yes Winchester does load it.

[TMF]

Army issue is actually 124 grain M882 9mm NATO which is pressured at 36,500 PSI. When compared to most standard 115 grain, 34,083 PSI 9mm ammo as found at Walmart, the 9mm NATO ammo is running a higher pressure, analogous to a 9mm +P load. The requirement for this higher pressure round can be traced back to the need for it to run in subguns.

You'll find that an issued M9 will often short stroke when using the lower pressure "Walmart" ammo. The spring setup is for the higher pressure 9mm NATO.

Academy Sports often stocks the M882 and I have seen it pop up at Walmart ever so often. And yes Winchester does load it.

The stuff we always had was Winchester brand boxes; the same kind I buy at wally world. Comes in the same 1,000 rd cardboard box and everything.

[DMark]

.... The stuff we always had was Winchester brand boxes; the same kind I buy at wally world. Comes in the same 1,000 rd cardboard box and everything....

TMF 18B, I'm sure you are correct.

Interesting, was it a local purchased or via the Class V system?

Here is the issued stuff. Headstamp will be FC for Federal or WCC for Winchester along with the NATO "circle +" stamp.

Getting back on topic......

The USMC will be using ammunition nomenclature Cartridge, Caliber .45, Ball, M1911 NSN 1305-00-555-7077. It is packaged 50 rounds per carton, 20 cartons per M2A1 ammo can.

[TMF]

TMF 18B, I'm sure you are correct.

Interesting, was it a local purchased or via the Class V system?

It surely wasn't local considering using the same brand for years and years and having the requirement to expend it each fiscal year. Of course, my knowledge of ammo resupply begins and ends at picking it up from a bunker full of all our stuff. I've seen big Army with cans of American Eagle all the time downrange as well, but I've never seen it at the bunker.

[Erik88]

Will these Colt's actually work right out of the box? I'm sorry but when I picture a "go to war" handgun it isn't the 1911.

[strickj]

Will these Colt's actually work right out of the box? I'm sorry but when I picture a "go to war" handgun it isn't the 1911.

They have been going to war for 101 years now. March 29 1911 is the official adoption date.

Edited July 29, 2012 by strickj

[Erik88]

They have been going to war for 101 years now. March 29 1911 is the official adoption date.

You don't need to school me on the history of the 1911.

You didn't answer my question about whether they will actually WORK right out of the box. I think I'd pick a $400 RIA over a Colt.

[timcalhoun]

You don't need to school me on the history of the 1911.

You didn't answer my question about whether they will actually WORK right out of the box. I think I'd pick a $400 RIA over a Colt.

Do they just take them right out of the box and go fight with them, or do they shoot and train with them first?

[Guest BungieCord]

What's gone so wrong with the Marines' rifles (or they way in which they use them) that it's become important what they carry as a sidearm?

[Erik88]

What's gone so wrong with the Marines' rifles (or they way in which they use them) that it's become important what they carry as a sidearm?

That is a good point. My brother did 2 tours in Iraq and only used his Beretta one time. It got the job done(he didn't actually have to shoot the guy).

[strickj]

You don't need to school me on the history of the 1911.

You didn't answer my question about whether they will actually WORK right out of the box. I think I'd pick a $400 RIA over a Colt.

To answer your question, Colt 1911s have been going to war for 101 years

I can not answer your question about the reliability of Colt 1911s in combat because I'm not in the Military. I can provide an internet opinion from a super-duper secret special forces operator that says 1911s are horrible though.

Personally, I can assume they are reliable because they have seen 101 years of continued use.

Edited July 29, 2012 by strickj

[QuietDan]

All Marines are six foot tall and bulletproof. Just ask the bad guys. Pullin' out the big ol' .45 with the big ol' hole at the end is often enough to make the bad guy put his arms up, empty his bladder and start cryin' like a little baby. Saves on ammunition.

Edited July 29, 2012 by QuietDan

[tnhawk]

The beretta has proven itself since replacing the 1911, but I'm still more comfortable with a 1911 in my hand.

[Il Duce]

Erik the issue with the 1911 nowadays is that they are built to tight tolerances (the great JMB did not design it to be like that) so that they can get every bit of bullseye accuracy out of it. When built to the loose specs of the original design you get a more reliable gun.....ie dirt won't mess it up.

[Kevo]

So basically the Marines are purchasing $1875 1911's for 6% of it's total force. I'd expect that for that price that these pistols will not be Mil-Spec, but in fact hand fitted custom pistols for Marines with extensive training for CQB. Just like how SWAT teams carry different weapons than a regular officer. The FBI SWAT team doesn't carry Glocks, Sigs or any other approved duty pistols. They carry custom 1911's.

[Guest 556or762]

I see this debate will be raging for days and many valid points have been made as to weight, reliability, accuracy and ammunition supply. I woudl have to guess that the ammunition supply, accuracy and excellent balanced feel of a good 1911 drove this decision. I would also have to assume that Colt will be making these 1911's to a slightly less than average set of plans and that they will tkae into consideration the environment in which they will be used just as they have with the rifles that are supplied to the military versus the public. I have several .45 acp pistols from various manufacturers, with polymer,aluminum, scandium and steel frames and I have to say that in the hand a fully loaded 5 in barrel Springfield XD, Smith &Wesson M&P, or FN is just as heavy as a 1911, this is mainly due to the higher capacity but hey the opinions here about weight were during a hump not in the hand at the range and if they are both loaded on your thigh you cant tell a difference. I have to say that if I were to have to use a pistol for URBAN combat, which is almost certainly what these were ordered for I would rather have a.45 than a 9mm. As to the comment about dropping the rifle for the pistol, the close ranges encountered in Iraq and Afghanistan where a pistol is much easier to use like what most of us would encounter in an apartment building are going to be too close for 5.56 to have immediate stopping power and the same for 9mm a large heavy slug at a slower speed works very well in CQB. All in all I think it should be a very well thought out and very well recieved addition to the Marine units that will use it. Thats just my ignorant two cents!

[TnShooter83]

According to the article they will supply "as many as" 12,000 pistols. That works out to $1,875.00 EACH.

They could have bought 3 Glock 21 pistols for every 1911 and had a little money left over.

I'm not saying the clot is not a good gun or that a Glock is better. All I'm saying is that is a WHOLE lot of money.

[QuietDan]

According to the article they will supply "as many as" 12,000 pistols. That works out to $1,875.00 EACH.

They could have bought 3 Glock 21 pistols for every 1911 and had a little money left over.

I'm not saying the clot is not a good gun or that a Glock is better. All I'm saying is that is a WHOLE lot of money.

I'm thinking the cost includes spare parts and a logistics tail.