SEMPER FI! The Marines Bring Back An Old Warhorse!!!

[GoneBallistic]

I'm pretty sure that price also includes some extra internal work (i.e. trigger etc.) as well. I've qualified with a Beretta

and I carry a 1911 stateside but I would definitely pick a Colt 1911 over a Beretta any day!

[Sam1]

According to the article they will supply "as many as" 12,000 pistols. That works out to $1,875.00 EACH.

They could have bought 3 Glock 21 pistols for every 1911 and had a little money left over.

I'm not saying the clot is not a good gun or that a Glock is better. All I'm saying is that is a WHOLE lot of money.

A dod contract would have Glock's purchased at $1500-$2000 each as well. Any one of us would be able to buy it for a fraction of the price, but there's a lot of guarantees included in gov. contracts which we are not receiving when we pick up one at a LGS.

[TMF]

What's gone so wrong with the Marines' rifles (or they way in which they use them) that it's become important what they carry as a sidearm?

Pistols are not a primary weapon. Pistols are only carried by the door kicking variety for the purpose of having a secondary in the event their primary malfunctions or runs dry during CQB. These pistols were purchased for the door kicking variety, not for fat REMFs to carry around in lieu of their rifle.

[RWF]

The beretta has proven itself since replacing the 1911, but I'm still more comfortable with a 1911 in my hand.

I do know that the M9 went though growing pains, several parts were prone to break, if i rememeber correctly it was the slide and the barrel block i think it is called. no i am not a fan of the M9, as i recall it was the main force for the 9mm was do to NATO, everyone else was using 9mm.

on the cost side SIG also came out top, but because they wanted more for mags and all the goodies that came with it, they lost.

also on one post someone was talking about when cleaning the M & P and the little spring on the sear. unless things change a whole hell of lot. you a soldier will never strip it down that far. hell by the book we could not even remove the trigger group on your rifle. that was 3rd shop work.

[TMF]

I do know that the M9 went though growing pains, several parts were prone to break, if i rememeber correctly it was the slide and the barrel block i think it is called. no i am not a fan of the M9, as i recall it was the main force for the 9mm was do to NATO, everyone else was using 9mm.

The locking blocks still break all the time. The reason it isnt a big deal is because most units will never shoot them enough to cause them to break regularly. I have replaced dozens of them. It can be a real pain since it often seizes the gun up and requires some finesse to get it apart.

[RWF]

The locking blocks still break all the time. The reason it isnt a big deal is because most units will never shoot them enough to cause them to break regularly. I have replaced dozens of them. It can be a real pain since it often seizes the gun up and requires some finesse to get it apart.

be damn i really though that been fixed. that is piss poor that it is still a issue.

[TMF]

be damn i really though that been fixed. that is piss poor that it is still a issue.

Well, like I said, I don't think it's considered an "issue" because most units simply don't shoot that much over the life of the weapon or in one sitting. Especially now that there are weapons refits annually so many of those parts may be replaced before it becomes an issue. They break in those M9s that are seeing regular 500-1000 round days and 15,000+ rounds a year. Then again, I recall many refurbished Ithaca and Remington Rand 1911s having similar round counts put through them with similar results of parts wearing out or breaking. My favorite being the front sight flying off.

I think most modern pistols (to include most 1911s) can withstand such tortures just fine. I think Beretta locking block design puts a lot of stress on those lugs which is what creates that problem, as it is those lugs that snap off of the block. I don't know if it is substandard material they make the locking blocks out of for Military contracted parts. I can recognize that the markings on my personal 92 block is different from the Army's, but beyond that it would take an educated metallurgist to explain if there is a significant difference in the quality.

[Motasyco]

I have several 1911s and I also have a M&P 40. I actually find the M&P easier to field strip and reassemble than the 1911. I never pull the "tool" out of the M&P. A toothpick, pen, twig, long fingernail, pocketknife, any number of items can be used to reach the little lever. And I don't have to worry about putting that little scratch on the side of my M&P when I reassemble it. Both the 1911 and the M&P are more accurate than I am and the M&P has never failed to fire when the trigger is pulled with well over 1000 rounds through it. Don't get me wrong, I love the 1911 platform and it is a joy to shoot but it is heavier and just doesn't hold as many rounds as the M&P. Going to the range, I enjoy a 1911. Going into a firefight, I'd prefer the M&P.

[Geno]

A Marine and his RIFLE are a deadly combo... that said and proven I am an old school jar head and like that the Colt 1911 is being revisited. If I were active today I would personally prefer the Colt 1911 with my trusty old M-14 battle rifle.... Just use what you have well... only hits count.

SEMPER FI

Edited July 30, 2012 by Geno

[323ssplt]

Ok, to try and settle this debate I will put my two cents into this discussion.

Seeing as how I was at Quantico just a month or so ago, and was talking with the OIC of the Precision Weapons Shop, I feel I have a fairly good handle on this situation.

The Marine Corps has always continued to use the 1911. While the standard sidearm became the M9, specialized units like Force Recon and now MARSOC still use custom built 1911's. These 1911's have been built for Marines by Marines at PWS. With a few exceptions, they have continued to use original 1911 frames that were produced during WWII. The problem they have encountered recently, is they are running out of frames. They recently went to Anniston and had to go through several hundred pistols just to come up with a handful of frames that were even suitable for building on.

Remember, these pistols are being used by the most elite of Marine forces, and a typical Force Recon Marine will wear out a 1911 doing the six month work up for a MEU. The PWS just can't keep enough rebuilt guns in the system. Hence the desire to find an off the shelf 1911 that will meet the end users needs.

Again, this is not to be a standard issue pistol, that is still the M9, actually the M9A1 now. This new pistol is to be used by Force Recon and MARSOC Marines in some of the most hair raising situations that could ever be imagined. They have used the 1911 forever, have found it to be ideal for their uses, and want to continue using a 1911 for the foreseeable future.

I hope this clears up some of the confusion, and ends some of the debate about why they didn't adopt this or that modern pistol.

[Smith]

Overly heavy, limited capacity, and only reliable (combat arena) when you make it loose enough to need a 5" barrel to get 3" accuracy and are mag sensitive? Yeah, it's the best ever!

In all seriousness, there are better more affordable options they should probably have gone with.

[Guest tswenka]

I gotta go with jeepbus. Just glad to see some American forces using more American weapons.

[RWF]

I gotta go with jeepbus. Just glad to see some American forces using more American weapons.

+1 even though they are made here, the money still goes across the pond.

Just like when the M1 tank first came out the barrels were from Germany, (do not know it that is still true) I am thinking WHAT THE HELL. back then the war we trained the most for is when Germany was over run. go figure

[RWF]

Well, like I said, I don't think it's considered an "issue" because most units simply don't shoot that much over the life of the weapon or in one sitting. Especially now that there are weapons refits annually so many of those parts may be replaced before it becomes an issue. They break in those M9s that are seeing regular 500-1000 round days and 15,000+ rounds a year. Then again, I recall many refurbished Ithaca and Remington Rand 1911s having similar round counts put through them with similar results of parts wearing out or breaking. My favorite being the front sight flying off.

I think most modern pistols (to include most 1911s) can withstand such tortures just fine. I think Beretta locking block design puts a lot of stress on those lugs which is what creates that problem, as it is those lugs that snap off of the block. I don't know if it is substandard material they make the locking blocks out of for Military contracted parts. I can recognize that the markings on my personal 92 block is different from the Army's, but beyond that it would take an educated metallurgist to explain if there is a significant difference in the quality.

got it, and do understand but just wondering, say a tank gunner should have a M9 for his weapon, he could have that same pistol for 5 years (just for the hell of it) is it run till failure or after x amount of time the block would be replace?

[TMF]

got it, and do understand but just wondering, say a tank gunner should have a M9 for his weapon, he could have that same pistol for 5 years (just for the hell of it) is it run till failure or after x amount of time the block would be replace?

That is really the mystery man. I never solved that one. I recall that I replaced 6 blocks out of 12 guns over the span of a 5 day intensive pistol/rifle training. Off the top of my head I would say that averaged around 500 rds a day. That would lead me to believe that it could be a combination of heat and repetitive force that caused one of the lugs to break. Then again, I've personally had 3 break on me and at least one of them was day 1 at a shooting course. Perhaps that one had just been weakened from a previous spendex, I dunno.

My educated guess would be that it has more to do with pushing the lugs to the limit vs round count. If it were the latter then I suppose 92/96 owners on the civilian market would be having this problem all the time, and the internet would be full of folks saying that Berettas are cheap pieces of garbage, but how many gun owners do you know that put 500-1000 rds a day through their pistols, or 15k-30k through them in a year? It just ain't the norm. Personally, my father carried a 92F as an LEO for over 20 years and he claims he's never heard of them breaking. So I'm thinking the common denominator is the acute abuse. Then again, I've only come by a few folks that have ever seen a lug break off the bolt face of an AR/M16/M4 and I've broken two! Maybe I'm just bad luck!

Edited July 30, 2012 by TMF 18B

[Guest tswenka]

I would think it runs more toward the contracts being awarded to the lowest bidder....dunno...just thinking. Use cheaper metal to bring the manufacture cost down and the profit margin up.....just sayin.

Maybe that's why civies get the 92f and the troops get the m9.

Edited July 30, 2012 by tswenka

[TMF]

I would think it runs more toward the contracts being awarded to the lowest bidder....dunno...just thinking. Use cheaper metal to bring the manufacture cost down and the profit margin up.....just sayin.

Maybe that's why civies get the 92f and the troops get the m9.

Could very well be; I don't know who manufactures those parts for the mil contract. There is a stamping on the locking block that ain't on my civi locking block. Beyond that I'd have to break my civi locking block to see what kind of candy is inside.

[Sam1]

+1 even though they are made here, the money still goes across the pond.

Just like when the M1 tank first came out the barrels were from Germany, (do not know it that is still true) I am thinking WHAT THE HELL. back then the war we trained the most for is when Germany was over run. go figure

The canons were designed by a German company but manufactured in the states. Now they're probably made in China, with tech support located in India for the engineers

[Will Carry]

Whenever Uncle Sam gives a soldier something lighter to carry, that just means they can give them more of something else to carry. They took away the M-14 and gave them the M-16 and said "Now think of all the extra stuff you can carry."

[Guest nowheretobefound]

I carried .45's my entire career, worked with both a nine and a forty some but never wanted to carry them on missions.

To its end though my choice or opinion didn’t matter in the Marines decision.

My two favorite Marine quotes;

The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen.

Thank God for the United States Marine Corps!

Eleanor Roosevelt, First Lady of the United States, 1945

Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don’t have that problem.

Ronald Reagan, President of the United States; 1985

[Guest USMC 2013]

40sw ball ammo is almost guaranteed to over penetrate due to its velocity. The NATO 9 mm ammo is higher pressure than standard 9mm fmj. I have no clue what kind of pressure is behind the military's 45 acp loads.

Performance:

Chamber pressure----------------- 19,000 psi

Velocity ------------------------------- 885 ± 25 fps,

25.5 ft from muzzle

These are contract specifications, that being said, each lot can within a certain tolerance. Semper Fi,

Joe

[Guest 556or762]

Then again, I've only come by a few folks that have ever seen a lug break off the bolt face of an AR/M16/M4 and I've broken two! Maybe I'm just bad luck!

I have broken two bolts, and 5 extractors on my civilian AR's and had 3 or 4 cases stick in the chamber with the rim pulled off, I dont actually personally know anyone who has done any of those things ot an AR. My point being if your bad luck, Im the freakin Devil!

[Guest USMC 2013]

I have broken two bolts, and 5 extractors on my civilian AR's and had 3 or 4 cases stick in the chamber with the rim pulled off, I dont actually personally know anyone who has done any of those things ot an AR. My point being if your bad luck, Im the freakin Devil!

Or, you could have a cheap weapon...Or, you could be shooting too hot of a round...Or, you could be shooting crappy steel cased ammo and all of these things could be what is breaking your weapon.

Joe

[LCPfraTN]

All I can say is Semper Fi....applies even to the choice of sidearm. I carried a 1911 when I was a mortar squad leader in the late 70's and loved that gun. I later carried a S&W model 10 as a Marine Security Guard on Embassy Duty...I have loved Smith revolvers ever since.