Texas Polygamist Compound

[memphismason]

I fell like more and more LEOs are starting to feel this way.

Ever since 9-11, we have been living in a police state, and the Poice forces are becoming more militant each day. I do not like the stories I have read about Police being issued M4s, and Anti-"Terror" drills being ran. After what happened in New Orleans after the hurricane, (citizens being dis-armed), and what just recently happened in TX at the poligimist sect (4th ammendment rights being violated), I am worried. I have always heard and read about Martial Law, and it now looks like it might become a reality.

I know, I know, my tinfoil hat is a little tight.

[KahrMan]

I fell like more and more LEOs are starting to feel this way.

Ever since 9-11, we have been living in a police state, and the Poice forces are becoming more militant each day. I do not like the stories I have read about Police being issued M4s, and Anti-"Terror" drills being ran. After what happened in New Orleans after the hurricane, (citizens being dis-armed), and what just recently happened in TX at the poligimist sect (4th ammendment rights being violated), I am worried. I have always heard and read about Martial Law, and it now looks like it might become a reality.

I know, I know, my tinfoil hat is a little tight.

Jason, why do you think the tx sect's rights were violated? Police have a duty to investigate claims of child sexual abuse. Unless the anonymous tip was made by the police to themselves, whats the problem with that case.

[memphismason]

Jason, why do you think the tx sect's rights were violated? Police have a duty to investigate claims of child sexual abuse. Unless the anonymous tip was made by the police to themselves, whats the problem with that case.

Investigating is one thing, removing children from their homes is another, especially a whole community.

Only one news report I read, stated this fact. " A woman was arrested in Colorado the same day for making phony phone calls as an abused 16 year old at various religious camps."

Also One phone call reporting an abuse of a child that does not exist does not give the gooberment the right to remove 400+ children from their homes.

Now having said that, I want to make it clear I do not condone abusing children in anyway, but I also do not condone 4th amendment rights being violated, and yes they were violated.

Who is to say that someone who is mad at the church my family goes to, makes a similar phone call, and I get a knock on my door or even have it busted in, and someone tries to take my child. I say try, because I believe in "From my Cold Dead Hands" for my guns, and that level is increased when my little girl is involved.

Granted we don't all live together on a "ranch". But that was just a stepping stone to removing the rights of others. The gooberment will continue to chip away at our individual rights, until we have no more left.

We can not legally carry our firearms in a National Park for crying out loud, or certain resturants, and that is a violation of my Second Amendment right, but all I can do is sit back and get mad.

Ok so look at it this way, maybe one of those families were doing things they shouldn't be doing, but why did every child get removed? Our First Amendment gives us a freedom of religion. But I guess that only matters, if the gooberment doesn't think your religion is "goofy". Who is to say they won't think mine is "goofy".

Edited May 19, 2008 by memphismason

[Fallguy]

Jason, why do you think the tx sect's rights were violated? Police have a duty to investigate claims of child sexual abuse. Unless the anonymous tip was made by the police to themselves, whats the problem with that case.

Yes, they had a duty to investigate. But IMO they needed a WHOLE LOT more proof of wrong doing to each child before they removed 400 of them from their parents.

[memphismason]

Yes, they had a duty to investigate. But IMO they needed a WHOLE LOT more proof of wrong doing to each child before they removed 400 of them from their parents.

+1

[Smith]

Investigating is one thing, removing children from their homes is another, especially a whole community.

Only one news report I read, stated this fact. " A woman was arrested in Colorado the same day for making phony phone calls as an abused 16 year old at various religious camps."

Also One phone call reporting an abuse of a child that does not exist does not give the gooberment the right to remove 400+ children from their homes.

Now having said that, I want to make it clear I do not condone abusing children in anyway, but I also do not condone 4th amendment rights being violated, and yes they were violated.

Who is to say that someone who is mad at the church my family goes to, makes a similar phone call, and I get a knock on my door or even have it busted in, and someone tries to take my child. I say try, because I believe in "From my Cold Dead Hands" for my guns, and that level is increased when my little girl is involved.

Granted we don't all live together on a "ranch". But that was just a stepping stone to removing the rights of others. The gooberment will continue to chip away at our individual rights, until we have no more left.

We can not legally carry our firearms in a National Park for crying out loud, or certain resturants, and that is a violation of my Second Amendment right, but all I can do is sit back and get mad.

Ok so look at it this way, maybe one of those families were doing things they shouldn't be doing, but why did every child get removed? Our First Amendment gives us a freedom of religion. But I guess that only matters, if the gooberment doesn't think your religion is "goofy". Who is to say they won't think mine is "goofy".

+1. There are many already who think fundamental Christians are extreme and abusive. Gotta agree with who sets the standards. This is big government in the family arena. We can't tell people what to do in the privacy of their own home, unless it is something the liberals don't like - such as discipline, religion, chores,...... These are not the governments kids. "Abuse" has become a weapon to control families with no oversight. One allegation, no matter how untrue and the government can take our children with no questions asked, no contact, no oversight, and it is extremely difficult to get them back undamaged by their "psychologist".

[KahrMan]

Yes, they had a duty to investigate. But IMO they needed a WHOLE LOT more proof of wrong doing to each child before they removed 400 of them from their parents.

When they got there they found dozens of underage girls pregnant and dozens and dozens of other underage girls "married". Now I agree that the mentality of "its for the children" gets used way to much. But in this case were you have a compound with dozens and dozens of sexually abused girls, "men"(pedophiles) married to underage girls and nobody talking, I do not think they over reacted.

You have sexual abuse happening on a grand scale at this compound. I have no problem with taking all the kids, investigating what happened then reuniting the ones that were not abused with their parents. But don't forget, even the adults that did not abuse any kids had to have known that it was going on. Condoning sexual abuse is almost just as bad as allowing it to happen.

[memphismason]

+1. There are many already who think fundamental Christians are extreme and abusive. Gotta agree with who sets the standards. This is big government in the family arena. We can't tell people what to do in the privacy of their own home, unless it is something the liberals don't like - such as discipline, religion, chores,...... These are not the governments kids. "Abuse" has become a weapon to control families with no oversight. One allegation, no matter how untrue and the government can take our children with no questions asked, no contact, no oversight, and it is extremely difficult to get them back undamaged by their "psychologist".

Right, I hate to see it, but it is true.

[memphismason]

When they got there they found dozens of underage girls pregnant and dozens and dozens of other underage girls "married". Now I agree that the mentality of "its for the children" gets used way to much. But in this case were you have a compound with dozens and dozens of sexually abused girls, "men"(pedophiles) married to underage girls and nobody talking, I do not think they over reacted.

You have sexual abuse happening on a grand scale at this compound. I have no problem with taking all the kids, investigating what happened then reuniting the ones that were not abused with their parents. But don't forget, even the adults that did not abuse any kids had to have known that it was going on. Condoning sexual abuse is almost just as bad as allowing it to happen.

I agree with what you stated. But I also don't believe in violating rights.

[KahrMan]

These are not the governments kids. "Abuse" has become a weapon to control families with no oversight. One allegation, no matter how untrue and the government can take our children with no questions asked, no contact, no oversight, and it is extremely difficult to get them back undamaged by their "psychologist".

Thats not exactly true. I don't think any of the kids would have been taken had they not found dozens of underage pregnant girls.

[memphismason]

Thats not exactly true. I don't think any of the kids would have been taken had they not found dozens of underage pregnant girls.

I disagree...they went with a purpose

[KahrMan]

I agree with what you stated. But I also don't believe in violating rights.

Fair enough. Normally I want the government to stay out of people business. This topic just really gets my blood boiling. The police know that this is a very emotional topic and probably use the fact that most people will look the other way if they step over the line.

[memphismason]

Fair enough. Normally I want the government to stay out of people business. This topic just really gets my blood boiling. The police know that this is a very emotional topic and probably use the fact that most people will look the other way if they step over the line.

Exactly

[KahrMan]

I disagree...they went with a purpose

You may very well be correct.

I just can't get past the fact that I am more angry at the abuse that happened than the way the police handled it.

I understand thats what the police are counting on and that pisses me off also.

[Smith]

Thats not exactly true. I don't think any of the kids would have been taken had they not found dozens of underage pregnant girls.

I was speaking in a more general sense than on that specific instance. However, I have known families who have battled for a lifetime to vindicate themselves from false allegations. The damage to the their children, who now live in fear (not of their family BTW) is abuse of a much larger proportion.

I do agree that abuse should not be tolerated. I wish we still lived in a time where ordinary citizens didn't allow that kind of stuff to happen.

[The Rabbi]

I was speaking in a more general sense than on that specific instance. However, I have known families who have battled for a lifetime to vindicate themselves from false allegations. The damage to the their children, who now live in fear (not of their family BTW) is abuse of a much larger proportion.

I do agree that abuse should not be tolerated. I wish we still lived in a time where ordinary citizens didn't allow that kind of stuff to happen.

Its a double edged sword. If you dont intervene and the kids are being abused then it's a problem. If you do intervene and the kids are not being abused, its a problem. And no bureaucrat wants to sit in a chair and answer to someone asking him "if you had information that a child was being abused, why didnt you do something about it?" So the tendency is to over-react.

Tough situation, no easy answers.

[Fallguy]

When they got there they found dozens of underage girls pregnant and dozens and dozens of other underage girls "married". Now I agree that the mentality of "its for the children" gets used way to much. But in this case were you have a compound with dozens and dozens of sexually abused girls, "men"(pedophiles) married to underage girls and nobody talking, I do not think they over reacted.

You have sexual abuse happening on a grand scale at this compound. I have no problem with taking all the kids, investigating what happened then reuniting the ones that were not abused with their parents. But don't forget, even the adults that did not abuse any kids had to have known that it was going on. Condoning sexual abuse is almost just as bad as allowing it to happen.

First let me say I don't condone any type of abuse, pedophilia or the like.

Ok, first thing you say is underage girls pregnant, my daughter was 17 when she got pregnant. Should the state have taken her away from me?

My ex wife was 16 when we got married. Should she and the above mentioned daughter, who was born when the ex was 17, been taken away from me?

Yes it was a compound and there were "dozens" of this incidents, but was it truly a tremendously larger percentage than in the rest of the country?

Since when does pregnancy and marriage equal sexual abuse?

So take all the kids first, then investigate, and then reunite those that did nothing wrong...Hmmmm sounds like guilt by association and guilty until proved innocent.

You don't appear to think the women were abusing their children, so with all the men out of the compound, Why was it necessary to take the kids from their mother's?

I'm not saying that nothing illegal happened within those walls, and any crimes should be punished. But do you think it would have all been ok if this was done on a city scale inside a city that has a high teen pregnancy/marriage rate? Just take every child in the whole town, then investigate and reunite those that did nothing wrong. Or what even in just a government housing complex? Does simply having a wall around your property make it ok?

Edited May 19, 2008 by Fallguy

[KahrMan]

First let me say I don't condone any type of abuse, pedophilia or the like.

Ok, first thing you say is underage girls pregnant, my daughter was 17 when she got pregnant. Should the state have taken her away from me?

My ex wife was 16 when we got married. Should she and the above mentioned daughter, who was born when the ex was 17, been taken away from me?

Yes it was a compound and there were "dozens" of this incidents, but was it truly a tremendously larger percentage than in the rest of the country?

Since when does pregnancy and marriage equal sexual abuse?

So take all the kids first, then investigate, and then reunite those that did nothing wrong...Hmmmm sounds like guilt by association and guilty until proved innocent.

You don't appear to think the women were abusing their children, so with all the men out of the compound, Why was it necessary to take the kids from their mother's?

I'm not saying that nothing illegal happened within those walls, and any crimes should be punished. But do you think it would have all been ok if this was done on a city scale inside a city that has a high teen pregnancy/marriage rate? Just take every child in the whole town, then investigate and reunite those that did nothing wrong. Or what even in just a government housing complex? Does simply having a wall around your property make it ok?

Fallguy, you make some good points. The difference, as I see it, in your case is you were both consenting parties. That was not the case in the compound.

Since when does pregnancy and marriage equal sexual abuse? When it involves 40 year old men with girls who are 13, 14 and 15, especially since the girls had no say in what was happening to them.

Why was it necessary to take the kids from their mother's? They allowed it to happen. I am not saying the women were not victims in this but that is not an excuse. For example.. I am not divorced but for the sake of argument lets say I am. My wifes new boyfriend or husband starts abusing my daughter and she allows it to happen. I would want her to spend as much time in jail as the guy who did the abusing.

I understand what you are saying in your last paragraph. Inner city teen pregnacy and marriage is a serious problem facing our society today. But you are still talking about willing participants. The girls in the compound didn't have a choice.

This is a very emotional issue. In a different situation I might argue differently. But in this situation, I think the right decisions were made.

[Guest slothful1]

When they got there they found dozens of underage girls pregnant...

No. This is surely the impression Texas CPS wants you to have, but the actual number was TWO currently pregnant, and that's assuming that CPS's estimates of ages are correct (and they sometimes aren't; there were some adults CPS claimed were minors http://www.kxan.com/global/story.asp?s=8327130 ). There were something like 28 alleged minors that they say have been pregnant in the past.

[Fallguy]

Since when does pregnancy and marriage equal sexual abuse? When it involves 40 year old men with girls who are 13, 14 and 15, especially since the girls had no say in what was happening to them.

I agree, I just meant that in general pregnancy doesn't equal sexual abuse.

Why was it necessary to take the kids from their mother's? They allowed it to happen. I am not saying the women were not victims in this but that is not an excuse. For example.. I am not divorced but for the sake of argument lets say I am. My wifes new boyfriend or husband starts abusing my daughter and she allows it to happen. I would want her to spend as much time in jail as the guy who did the abusing.

They had no way of knowing that the mother's let it happen. But if they did in some cases it couldn't have been every case where a child was taken. I'm sure some kids did need to be taken...it's just the blanket thing of taking them all...and then each family having to show they did nothing wrong, instead of the government having to show they did.

This is a very emotional issue. In a different situation I might argue differently. But in this situation, I think the right decisions were made.

This is emotional...and overall I think we have similar feeling about what is right and wrong, just maybe not on the finer details of this case.

[memphismason]

I am glad this got seperated.....I will feeling bad for starting the hijacking.

[KahrMan]

This is emotional...and overall I think we have similar feeling about what is right and wrong, just maybe not on the finer details of this case.

[Marswolf]

I just called the factory and told them we need a lot more tinfoil for this topic.

For the record, I'm against parents aiding pedophilia by "marrying" their children off to perpetuate a sick religious group. The kids had never even been told about sex before they got "married." That was left up to the "husband."

I hope none of the kids are returned to these perverts.

[Fallguy]

I am glad this got seperated.....I will feeling bad for starting the hijacking.

Oh, several threads get off-topic post in them...no biggie. I just felt this was interesting enough and had enough related post it justified having it's own thread.

[strickj]

These so called religious sects are nothing more then some old perverted pedophiles trying to sleep with young girls and make it sound like a religion.

IMO these sick f*ks have no rights and should be hung up by there balls for all to see.

The reason they have no rights is simply because they forcibly removed the rights,and innocence from countless kids,and condone inbreeding to sustain there sex drive.

These "ranches" should be burned to the ground