Why did no one fight back??

[DaveTN]

It really surprised me when so many people on a gun forum said they would stand back and not act while a woman was being stabbed to death; I would have never guessed that would be the case here. But when I heard of the shooting at the theater I was shocked when someone said it was 70 people. My first thought was how did he shoot 70 people in a theater before someone jumped him; did he have a fully automatic weapon? No, it’s just that no one acted.

As a cop during training we would learn from looking at incidents where cops got shot. I remember one of our instructors saying that it’s not popular to publicly criticize a dead Officers actions; but he probably died because he made a mistake. He went on to say "We are going to learn from thier mistakes".

I agree with the author here; no one wants to criticize the victims here; but we need to learn from this. Act or die.

Here is an interesting story, and accompany video asking some of the hard questions. Its worth watching.

Read:

http://www.naturalne...n_shooting.html

Video:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8kLdY38QGU[/media]

Edited July 22, 2012 by DaveTN

[hornett22]

It seemed well thought out. A showing that late is going to be mostly a young PC crowd. Your law abiding responsible adults who legally carry aren' likely to be at a movie that late. Plus the place was posted no firearms. Amazing how well those postings work.

[Paladin132]

I also thought that after hearing so many say he was so close to them... I think humans tend to not believe what they are seeing and beyond that, well we are being culturally indoctrinated to be victims. Legally people get into a bind when they do defend themselves - and let us not forget the standard in our schools today. It has become policy in many places to suspend or expel everyone involved in a fight - unless one completely does not resist after fleeing an attacker. In a few cases in WV that did not even help the student from sanctions.

We need to remind ourselves and the law (so our representatives) that force does not equal being a bad guy. It depends on the intent behind the force and the totality of the circumstances.

[Oh Shoot]

Pertinent here methinks, I said this in another thread:

"Yah, it does seem that there would at some point been sort of a spontaneous movement of several to rush the guy, but obviously didn't happen.

The Unitarian Church shooting here, though small change compared to Holmes, the shooter was rushed almost immediately by several folks as soon as he opened fire; though he did kill the first one, the others got to him and he did have a semi auto shotgun."

Somehow the group dynamics were really different in that theater than in that church.

- OS

[DaveTN]

Pertinent here methinks, I said this in another thread:

"Yah, it does seem that there would at some point been sort of a spontaneous movement of several to rush the guy, but obviously didn't happen.

The Unitarian Church shooting here, though small change compared to Holmes, the shooter was rushed almost immediately by several folks as soon as he opened fire; though he did kill the first one, the others got to him and he did have a semi auto shotgun."

Somehow the group dynamics were really different in that theater than in that church.

- OS

Mass murders know that they are never going to walk free again. I think most believe they will die in the attack or at the hands of the Police after the attack. Those that are prepared to go to prison know that because of the enormous expense of a capitol trial they can simply plead out and dodge the death penalty, that is the route Adkisson took; mission accomplished. Some want the death penalty.

[Oh Shoot]

Mass murders know that they are never going to walk free again.[etc]

Yeah, but that doesn't address crowd reaction -- you would think that if a bunch of unarmed folks (and presumed liberals at that ) in a church charged an active shooter, there would have been a few in that movie theater to do the same, since they guy was just slowly moving around in there. That's the rather inexplicable thing about the group dynamics.

Though I don't remember the specifics, I'd posit that the folks in the church that took him out were all older than the average in the theater -- that would be one major diff I reckon.

Oh yeah, and Loughner was tackled too, to name a more recent one.

- OS

Edited July 22, 2012 by OhShoot

[Erik88]

I used to think about what I would do in an active shooter situation while unarmed on campus. You really have 2 options.

1) hide under your desk and pray.

2) rush the guy and try to overwhelm him.

I'm not saying I would have had the guts to rush this guy in the theater, if I was far away I would have hit the floor hoped to live. I'm always armed at the movies but I don't know if I would have been able to get a shot off.

I am surprised that no one close to the guy tried to charge him when he went to reload. Then again, I wasn't there and I'm not about to judge anyone in such a horrible situation.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Erik88

[bigwakes]

The main issues are a dark theater, smoke grenades, utter confusion, and a blaring movie in the background. I don't think any of us could have reacted armed or not.

I would like to think I could have gotten to him, but with everything going on I doubt it. It's a very different story in a church with lights on and pretty quiet until the BG starts yelling or shooting.

[Oh Shoot]

The main issues are a dark theater, smoke grenades, utter confusion, and a blaring movie in the background....

Good points; simple sensory overload could well have been a factor.

- OS

[DaveTN]

The main issues are a dark theater, smoke grenades, utter confusion, and a blaring movie in the background. I don't think any of us could have reacted armed or not.

I would like to think I could have gotten to him, but with everything going on I doubt it. It's a very different story in a church with lights on and pretty quiet until the BG starts yelling or shooting.

Good points about the smoke and sensory overload. And I don’t want anyone to get the wrong idea, I am not trying to blame anyone other than the shooter. This is an opportunity for us all to learn and think about these scenarios. I guess we will get a better idea of what it was like in there as the survivors start telling their stories.

[Guest bkelm18]

Have they actually said for certain whether it was smoke or tear gas?

[Paladin132]

I do not think so but the calls from officers on the police radio said it smelled like OC.

[Mike.357]

where does one get tear gas from? ( not that I have intent to ever possess any)

Military grade smoke is easily purchased, but I have never seen tear gas

[Guest bkelm18]

where does one get tear gas from? ( not that I have intent to ever possess any)

Military grade smoke is easily purchased, but I have never seen tear gas

http://www.keepshooting.com/clear-out-6oz-tear-gas-grenade.html

[G27]

As someone with zero combat experience, I doubt I'd decide to charge a man armed with an AR wearing full protective gear.

Also remember that since he was in the front of the theater, the viewers' faces were all illuminated by the back-splash from the screen, while he was likely a dark silhouette (at most). And the patrons were likely choking with eyes-watering while he could see everything clearly.

No matter how bad-to-the-bone you are, you end up like a sitting duck in this situation. Fish in a barrel.

Edited July 22, 2012 by crimsonaudio

[TMF]

Sensory overload + obstacles (people/seating). Hindsight being what it is, I'm certain that I wouldn't know what I was experiencing for a few good seconds, and by then I'm either a victim or trapped.

This was perfectly set up for what he wanted to do. What a selfish coward. There is no punishment that could fit this crime.

[Paladin132]

I disagree. I know quite a few folks that watch people as they come in - especially if they come in during the movie. Many people freeze, but among people who are not always in condition white reaction times are much less. Not saying the next time something like that happens around me that I may not stand there and go slack jawed, but I am much less likely to do that anymore it seems than people around me when I see something off. Now is it possible? Sure. You bet. Is it possible that I would not have been able to fire accuratly? Sure.

But as a socieity should we not strive to save lives, and when we see someone who tried to do the right thing ,the moral thing, the just thing and it goes badly we need to hail them for trying, not crucify them because it didn't turn out like a fairy tail.

[Ebow1]

I'm thinking the smoke grenades/sensory overload played a big part in the lack of action. Mass confusion which is already making people panicky and then the realization that people are getting gunned down just feeds the already existing panic. Look at flight 93, the flight that took action against the 9/11 terrorists. Although the plane was taken over, the were left in the passenger area, for the most part alone, some confusion, but no sensory overload like with this shooter, they are able to figure out what has happened and calmly come to the decision to stop it. The movie shooting was sudden, it was chaos, and it didn't give anybody time to cultivate a response, only to respond to their immediate reaction that it's hitting the fan.

[chances R]

Several comments

1. Evil has been present since Cain v Abel. Always will be that way. If man does not care to violate God's law, thou shall not kill, then why would he care to violate man's law? Laws are ineffective in this case...just like the gun-buster sign.

2. Many throughout the media and public call-in actually condemned any HCP intervention, worried about cross-fire etc. I don't think it could have been much worse. The shooter, IMO, was playing a video game in his mind. If the game shot back, I think it would have been different. Maybe not by one HCP, but what if there had been 3 - 4 HCP present?

3. The media gives no acknowledgment that many civilians have had considerably more firearms training than a lot of LEO. Not speaking of crisis intervention, in general, but simply firearms.

4. Whether the level of training of a HCP is satisfactory or not, each person has the right to chose whether to arm and protect themselves. In retrospect, it would be interesting how many in that theater would have preferred to have a weapon available.

[Clod Stomper]

IMO, those of us in Condition Yellow should be not only watching what's going on around us, but thinking about "what if". Richard Marcinko called it "war-gaming". Believe it or not, I've sat in a movie theater and imagined what I could possibly do if this very thing were to happen. And I avoid crowded theaters like the plague. Not only because I hate crowds, but in case of events like this one.

In this case, I believe it would have been extremely difficult for even an aware and competent armed citizen to take this guy out for the reasons stated above. A theater packed with panicky kids, OC gas, light from the screen in your face and just a silhouette of the bad guy. Unless the good guy/gal was near where the gunman entered and wasn't immediately overcome with tear gas, I'm betting a clean shot would have been difficult. Not that it shouldn't have been attempted...

As far as being afraid to act, I'm not sure that's the case in a situation such as this. I think that most people, given the choice between dying while sitting still and dying while trying to stop a murderer will try to stop him. I just think that they were taken by surprise because they were in Condition White to begin with, and they had no clue how to react because they had never even considered the possibility.

[Jonnin]

I have thought about it.... what would you have done? I would have shot at the guy if at all possible in the smoke and all, and when my rounds did little (body armor!) I probably would have been shot in turn.

If I had realized he was in armor, what then? Duck & cover, for sure. After that? Try for headshots from cover?

All I can come up with is I am now seriously thinking about making some steel ammo.

[Clod Stomper]

2. Many throughout the media and public call-in actually condemned any HCP intervention, worried about cross-fire etc. I don't think it could have been much worse. The shooter, IMO, was playing a video game in his mind. If the game shot back, I think it would have been different. Maybe not by one HCP, but what if there had been 3 - 4 HCP present?

Isn't that amazing? I even debated a similar issue with some non-thinkers after the 9/11 attacks. They couldn't even acknowledge that it may have turned out better if there had been armed flight personnel or even armed passengers on those flights. In their mind, a gun ALWAYS makes the situation worse. Yep, worse than 3000 people being murdered. It's just an emotional reaction and no amount of logic will get through until they are in that situation themselves.

4. Whether the level of training of a HCP is satisfactory or not, each person has the right to chose whether to arm and protect themselves. In retrospect, it would be interesting how many in that theater would have preferred to have a weapon available.

Some of those involved will unfortunately believe that stricter gun control would have prevented it. However, I hope that there are many more that will say to themselves "I wish I'd had a gun". Because next time, they probably will.

[TMF]

I have thought about it.... what would you have done? I would have shot at the guy if at all possible in the smoke and all, and when my rounds did little (body armor!) I probably would have been shot in turn.

If I had realized he was in armor, what then? Duck & cover, for sure. After that? Try for headshots from cover?

All I can come up with is I am now seriously thinking about making some steel ammo.

I don't think it would have mattered what caliber gun you had, the ammo or the fact that he was kitted up. I would bet any amount of money that the criminal would have broken contact and fled. Someone bent on murdering helpless people is not the type of person that has the balls to go toe to toe with someone capable of defending themselves.

[Clod Stomper]

I have thought about it.... what would you have done? I would have shot at the guy if at all possible in the smoke and all, and when my rounds did little (body armor!) I probably would have been shot in turn.

If I had realized he was in armor, what then? Duck & cover, for sure. After that? Try for headshots from cover?

All I can come up with is I am now seriously thinking about making some steel ammo.

Yes and yes. I don't know if it would have been obvious in a dark theater, but I do recognize body armor. I have several LE friends and it's quite obvious when they're wearing it.

Only thing you CAN do. Shoot until they stop. if body shots don't stop them go for the head. I may get shot, but I'll get shot while I'm shooting.

Steel ammo may be a good idea, but don't tell anybody.

[Clod Stomper]

I don't think it would have mattered what caliber gun you had, the ammo or the fact that he was kitted up. I would bet any amount of money that the criminal would have broken contact and fled. Someone bent on murdering helpless people is not the type of person that has the balls to go toe to toe with someone capable of defending themselves.

Yup. Hope so.

He quit before the police arrived, didn't he? I guess he wasn't really looking for a shootout with anyone.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Clod Stomper