De cocking levers. Why ?

[94user]

3 years ago my sister bought me a Beretta PX4 for my birthday. I love everything about it except for that ugly de cocker. Why is it needed? The PX4 is SA/DA so no need to carry it with the hammer cocked. 1911's don't have a de cocker. The 20 gauge break open that was the first gun I ever shot didn't have a de cocker. DA/SA revolvers don't have a de cocker. Why have them ?

[Patton]

Because after the first round it is too dangerous to ride the hammer forward with your thumb.

[mikegideon]

Yep. I like decockers. It's makes me a little nervous dropping the hammer on a 1911.

[Guest bkelm18]

I'd much rather have a decocker than a negligent discharge.

[94user]

Because after the first round it is too dangerous to ride the hammer forward with your thumb.

After the first round ? What do you mean by that ?

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Yep, comes in handy with an SA/DA sermiauto. I don't have a PX4 but don't know how one would normally get the 92FS or Cougar loaded without ending up with a cocked hammer. The trigger is pretty light on those guys cocked, and engaging the safety decocks in an almost foolproof fashion, rotating the firing pin transfer bar so things would have to go crazy mechanically wrong to have any chance of accidental discharge.

I usually chamber the first round with the safety on to begin with, which decocks as soon as the slide drops and chambers the first round. Chambering the first round with the safety engaged, you would have to really screw up or have massive mechanical failures to accidentally fire when chambering the first round.

I have a CZ 85 Combat that is DA/SA, but was intentionally made with neither firing pin block nor decocker. I like it fine but that configuration is more error-prone if a fella wants to carry it hammer down. Say if I was in the habit of loading it in the bedroom for daily carry-- After chambering the round the hammer is cocked and ready to rock'n'roll with light trigger pressure.

The gun offers two ways you can carry it. I could immediately flip on the safety and carry it cocked'n'locked like a 1911. Otherwise, I need to hold the hammer with thumb, pull the trigger, and ease the hammer down without shooting a hole in the bedroom. If a fella was to do that daily then sooner or later he would messup and have a bullet hole in the bedroom, and hope that is the only damage that happened. In addition, without the firing pin block, carrying hammer down is 99.9 percent safe but if a fella managed to drop the gun just exactly the wrong way it could go off like the old revolvers would sometimes do if the hammer was resting on a loaded chamber. But the lack of firing pin block detail is just a rare trivial feature of that model of gun. They make some of the CZ's thataway to improve the trigger.

So that gun is SA/DA but in reality without the firing pin block the only "absolutely safe" way to carry it is cocked'n'locked. Which is fine by me, but not if somebody wanted to carry hammer down. I think the vast majority of CZ 75 and 85 do have the firing pin block, regardless whether they have a decocker or not.

====

Edit-- Patton was speaking of the other safety angle maybe more important than chambering the first round-- If you were carrying and had to shoot self-defense and expend 3 rounds, then yer PX4 is cocked and ready to rock'n'roll, and you are a nervous wreck with shaking hands and drenched in sweat. Lots safer to drop the hammer with the decocker in that situation, compared to pulling the trigger with thumb on hammer, hoping you don't let loose a fourth unintended round trying to return the gun to a safer condition.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Lester Weevils

[HvBikeWlTravel]

I'd much rather have a decocker than a negligent discharge.

Here, here!

[94user]

Lester, I cannot load a round without ending up with a cocked hammer. Only DAO autos can but I'm sure you know that. Your explanation of de-cocking the pistol after a defensive shooting is a very valid point. I wasn't thinking about it that way, I was thinking about easing the hammer down with my thumb while the pistol was pointed in a safe direction. Thank you for that.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I have seen several people try to ride the hammer on 1911's only to have their thumb slip off. In the military one of our policies said no lock and cocked carry. To some that meant a round chambered and hammer down. And there was several AD's until the policy was revised to say no rounds chambered.

Riding the hammer down is never ideal. It is possible with due care but I would rather have a decocker than use my thumb.

Dolomite

[Murgatroy]

I'd much rather have a decocker than a negligent discharge.

What he said.

I think you are kinda overlooking the fact that with a SA/DA pistol, it is impossible to get a round into the chamber without working the slide, and thus cocking it. Unlike your break action 20ga you had as a kid, or a SA/DA Revolver with a swing out cylinder.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Murgatroy

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Lester, I cannot load a round without ending up with a cocked hammer. Only DAO autos can but I'm sure you know that. Your explanation of de-cocking the pistol after a defensive shooting is a very valid point. I wasn't thinking about it that way, I was thinking about easing the hammer down with my thumb while the pistol was pointed in a safe direction. Thank you for that.

Thanks as well, 94user. I've handled PX4 several times and shot one once. Liked the PX4 a bunch, but didn't pay close attention to the PX4 safety. Had assumed that the safety was the same as a 92FS or Cougar. Both of those have virtually identical safeties and since the PX4 looks for all the world like a modernized plastic-frame Cougar, I assumed the safety would be the same on the PX4.

In both the 92FS and Cougar, if the safety is engaged before dropping the slide on the first round, then it automatically decocks after loading the round in the chamber and you don't have to manually decock the gun (unless I forget and drop the slide on the first round with the safety off, which is no big deal unless a fella goofed up and got real clumsy in the one or two seconds between dropping the slide and engaging the decocker).

There are probably lots of safety variations in the DA/SA guns. The cute little Beretta Cheetahs were made with a couple of variants of safety but as far as I can tell only one modern variant. For one thing the Cheetah safety works in the direction "god intended". The safety is on when up and off when down, like a 1911 or CZ75. Some of the older variants could be carried cocked and locked or hammer down. After dropping the slide you could raise the safety lever and go cocked'n'locked, or raise the safety lever a little farther which would decock the gun and then you could carry it hammer down with the safety either off or on, your preference. The new Cheetahs I've seen in stores don't seem to allow carrying cocked'n'locked anymore but maybe I misunderstood it. It looked like raising the safety always dropped the hammer, just like the other beretta pistols except the polarity is "as god intended" and the safety is on the frame.

I think most all of the Taurus 92 clones work like some of the old cheetah safeties. You can carry hammer down with safety either on or off. And you can carry cocked'n'locked, and you can push the safety "a little further than safe" to engage the decocker.

Which is also similar to some configurations of CZ 75 family pistols. CZ releases several variants on how the safety operates.

[daddyo]

Yep. I like decockers. It's makes me a little nervous dropping the hammer on a 1911.

What reason would you have for doing that?

[Murgatroy]

My Jericho drops the hammer if the safety/decocker is on when you rack the slide.

[DaveTN]

Why would you ride the hammer down on a 1911, why wouldn’t you release the mag and pull the slide back?

[Oh Shoot]

Lester, I cannot load a round without ending up with a cocked hammer....

What happens if you engage safety, then rack the slide with PX4?

Safety disengages and hammer stays back?

(I have only 92fs also)

- OS

Edited July 22, 2012 by OhShoot

[Guest Grout]

Why would you ride the hammer down on a 1911, why wouldn’t you release the mag and pull the slide back?

To carry in Cond.2 hammer down on a chambered rd.

[Guest Grout]

If you must lower the hammer on a hangun with a rd in the chamber it is a lot safer to do so squeezing the hammer with the thumb and index finger of the opposite hand.

[mikegideon]

What reason would you have for doing that?

Only when I'm playing with it. No reason to do it under normal circumstances. You're supposed to pinch the hammer between your thumb and forefinger.

EDIT: Sorry Grout. Saw your post after I posted this.

Edited July 22, 2012 by mikegideon

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I use the decocker on semi's that have it. I never decock by pulling the trigger and lowering the hammer even on the CZ 85C which doesn't have a decocker. I just always run the CZ 85C cocked and locked.

Just now thought of something-- Even at the range with the gun pointed safely downrange-- If using the thumb to ease down the hammer-- If the hammer slips and the gun fires-- Wouldn't the slide come back and put the hurt on yer thumb? Best case it would hurt like an SOB without a sprain or broken thumb? Maybe sometimes the thumb would get caught and mashed between the slide and frame? Ouch! That hurts just thinking about it!

Grout's idea of lowering the hammer with the weak hand-- Maybe that wouldn't hurt as much but bet it would still get yer attention!

[Guest dubaholic2]

On the PX4 type F, with the safety on, it will de-cock after the slide is racked.

[Oh Shoot]

On the PX4 type F, with the safety on, it will de-cock after the slide is racked.

94 user said: "I cannot load a round without ending up with a cocked hammer."

So, there's a type of PX4, different from yours, where that happens?

- OS

[TMF]

I have seen several people try to ride the hammer on 1911's only to have their thumb slip off. In the military one of our policies said no lock and cocked carry. To some that meant a round chambered and hammer down. And there was several AD's until the policy was revised to say no rounds chambered.

Riding the hammer down is never ideal. It is possible with due care but I would rather have a decocker than use my thumb.

Dolomite

Those ones you had in the military also weren't drop safe, were they? I have seen people do this with 1911s and I don't get it. It is designed to carry with the hammer cocked, safety on. I can't tell you how many times I've had some ignorant bastard come tell me that my hammer needs to be down. If there is a round in the chamber on a 1911 the hammer should never, ever be down.

As for the SA/DA, you need a decocker for the opposite reason. The hammer is supposed to be down, but you can't load it without the hammer being locked back. If they didn't have decockers people would be having NDs all over the place. Furthermore, if you have to use it would you really be wanting to ride the hammer forward to make it safe during an engagment?? I know that I wouldn't want to be running around with a pistol in single action mode that I can click over to safe in a high adrenaline situation. That would be asking to shoot yourself. How 'bout just going to the range? I don't know about you, but with my DA/SA pistols I only fire a couple of rounds at a time, scan and bring it back. Every time I bring it back it is safe, as to replicate the condition it comes out of my holster. Folks that go to the range and fire off 15 round strings are killing the training value of those rounds by denying adequate training on that first DA shot, as the first shot is most important, followed by the second and third.

I dunno, if you didn't need a decocker then there wouldn't be a reason for every DA/SA semi-auto to have one. There is a reason; a lot of reasons. Comparing it to a revolver or a SA pistol doesn't make sense. You don't have to cock a revolver to load it and you can carry a SA semi-auto on safe with the hammer back.

[94user]

94 user said: "I cannot load a round without ending up with a cocked hammer."

So, there's a type of PX4, different from yours, where that happens?

- OS

There is a Type G that has no safety, only a de-cocker. Alas though, mine is a type F so I stand corrected. Thanks for all the replies everyone. This is the first autoloader I've had in years. Guess I need to get used to the de_cockers. Better safe than sorry.

[TMF]

My Beretta also doesn't have a safety.

[Jesse]

My ruger has a de cocker....im not use to it yet and it freaks me out when i use it wiith a round in the chamber. Are any de cockers known to fail?