PTR-91 KFM4 - CARBINE 308 16" Barrel

[Guest Shep Stoner308]

I have come across one of these for sale and was wondering if anyone has had any experience that they have had with this model that they would like to share.

[atlas3025]

I have read good things about them, but I have never shot one. Optic choices/mounting may be a little problematic as they don't have picatinny rails IIRC. Instead, they use a claw mount.

Edited July 18, 2012 by atlas3025

[Guest Shep Stoner308]

This is a interesting pdf link showing their different rifles. The one thing that is very interesting to me is that they use 7.62X39 Ammo, and this ammo is some of the most affordable around at the present time.

The PTR-32 series of rifles is designed using new and unique

internals, to bring the accuracy and reliability of the rollerlock

operating system into the 7.62x39mm caliber. A similar

design was released by HK to special units around the world in

limited qualities some time ago, and has been intensely sought

after by collectors since. PTR was able to take inspiration from

this, and improve upon it, the result being a truly revolutionary

7.62x39mm weapons platform.

• Available in all the same configurations

as the 91 series rifles.

• Accepts a wide variety of commercially

available AK magazines.

• Provides accuracy in the 1.5â€-2.5†MOA range.

Black furniture with new tactical handguard machined from military spec. Hard-anodized aluminum (complete with three rails), flash hider, H&K navy type polymer trigger group, M4 6-position stock, 7.62x39 Cal. with 16" barrel and one 30 rd. magazine. • Available in all the same configurations as the 91 series rifles. • Accepts a wide variety of commercially available AK magazines. • Provides accuracy in the 1.5"-2.5" MOA range

BUT, the weight is just under 10 pounds.........

http://www.ptr91.com...ges-3.23.11.pdf

Edited July 18, 2012 by Shep Stoner308

[atlas3025]

Keep in mind that SOME of their rifles use 7.62 x 39. The PTR 32 Series does use 7.62 x 39, but not the PTR 91 (uses 7.62 x 51), which is the model you were asking about in your opening.

I am just reiterating the difference because of the thread you posted the other day where you were asking about interchangability between 39 and 51. They are totally different, the bullet isn't even the same diameter. 39 bullets are .311 inches in diameter, and x51 are .308 inches in diameter. If you somehow got a 51 to fire in a 39 gun, it would blow up. If you somehow got a 39 to fire in a 51, it probably woudn't blow up, but you would ruin the barrel/chamber nonetheless.

The PTR rifles with the big banana clips (very curved) are x39...the ones that are pretty straight are x51.

Again, you may realize this because of the other thread, but I just want to make sure you are safe!

Edited July 18, 2012 by atlas3025

[Guest Shep Stoner308]

Thank You, yes I understand this now, what your saying makes sense as I have seen some postings for this listing the 308 Winchester or the 7.62 Nato. This is more confusing in some cases because those selling the rifles that I am seeing are apparently not even sure what they are selling because of the specifications with the clip you listed above. Your right of course, within the last 15 minutes I have discovered what your saying about the different ammo types is very true.

[Guest Shep Stoner308]

For my budget, I keep coming back to the AK-47 type rifles. I can pick up a decent one for about 5 to 600 right now on several sites. But I am attempting to do a person to person transaction for what I would consider to most to be the obvious reasons.

[atlas3025]

Not a problem! 7.62 x 39 is a good round for hunting in the woods, and a good man-stopper for defense. It is a short/Medium range cartridge, however, mainly effective under 300 yards. The 7.62 Nato (7.62 x 51) or .308 is a medium/long range deal--and though used out to 1000 yards by trained snipers--for hunting, probably a 500-600 yard max (though many would debate if you should ever take a shot at that range from an ethical standpoint).

Let me caution you on another matter regarding 7.62 x 39 and nomenclature. There is another popular 7.62 cartridge that is russian in origin, and their names may also confuse you. 7.62 x 54, which is on the same order of power as the 7.62 Nato.

I have seen BOTH the 7.62 x 54 AND the 7.62 x 39 referred to as 7.62 Russian...so if you see 7.62 Russian, make sure you find out which one, because they are not at all interchangeable either.

Others can confirm, but I believe the x54 is really the "Russian", but I have nonetheless seen, read, and heard others refer to x39 as it as well.

[peejman]

A friend had one for a while. Fun to shoot. Heavy, like any non AR 7.62 NATO battle rifle, but not objectionable. Wish I'd bought it when he sold it.

[dlm37015]

i bought one of the 762x 39 models to use . i love it it shoots everything with ease iron sights for me group about 3 inches at 100 yards with reloads

[nightrunner]

7.62russian doesnt exist. 7.62x54r the R stands for rimmed not russian. Both x54r and x39 originated in russia though.

[atlas3025]

7.62russian doesnt exist. 7.62x54r the R stands for rimmed not russian. Both x54r and x39 originated in russia though.

Gotcha...I sure hear the term used a great deal.

[Guest Shep Stoner308]

Keep in mind that SOME of their rifles use 7.62 x 39. The PTR 32 Series does use 7.62 x 39, but not the PTR 91 (uses 7.62 x 51), which is the model you were asking about in your opening.

I am just reiterating the difference because of the thread you posted the other day where you were asking about interchangability between 39 and 51. They are totally different, the bullet isn't even the same diameter. 39 bullets are .311 inches in diameter, and x51 are .308 inches in diameter. If you somehow got a 51 to fire in a 39 gun, it would blow up. If you somehow got a 39 to fire in a 51, it probably woudn't blow up, but you would ruin the barrel/chamber nonetheless.

The PTR rifles with the big banana clips (very curved) are x39...the ones that are pretty straight are x51.

Again, you may realize this because of the other thread, but I just want to make sure you are safe!

thanks!!

[Guest Shep Stoner308]

I have decided not to buy it, I asked the seller if it would shoot 7.62x51 NATO and he said it would only shoot 308. (?) But peejman said he liked the way a similar rifle shot so I will post the sale here for him and others if that's ok??? If its not OK please moderators don't give me a negative, please just delete it or I will if instructed to do so.

http://www.gunbroker...?Item=296017258

Currently the bid is $405, the seller did say the reserve for this rifle is $1000, good hunting to those that may buy it.

Again I am thankful to everyone's generousness in sharing their information and experience, it just reaffirms my decision to start off with the AK as my home defense and hunting/survival first purchase. Maybe when times get better for me I will get into the AR10 stuff and all the cool furniture that you can get for them!

Edited July 18, 2012 by Shep Stoner308

[atlas3025]

I am suprised it won't shoot 7.62 Nato...they are built from mil parts I thought. I question the validity of that.

[peejman]

If you look up the specs, 7.62 NATO and .308 WIN are different in pressure, headspace, and case geometry. Whether the spec differences are real and significant is the subject of great debate.

Specifically considering a semi-auto battle rifle that's stamped .308 on the side.... I'd have no issue running 7.62 NATO stamped ammo in it. I would not do the converse.

Oh, and $1000 for a PTR? The price sure has gone up a lot from what I recall. I really should've bought that one...

Edited July 18, 2012 by peejman

[Guest Shep Stoner308]

Oh, and $1000 for a PTR? The price sure has gone up a lot from what I recall. I really should've bought that one...

Just a little looking around today on several other sites I noted that most of them are going in the range of $1200 to $1400 new, plus shipping checks and what nots.

[nightrunner]

You can shoot 7.62nato in a .308win chamber but not reverse

[Murgatroy]

Keep in mind that SOME of their rifles use 7.62 x 39. The PTR 32 Series does use 7.62 x 39, but not the PTR 91 (uses 7.62 x 51), which is the model you were asking about in your opening.

I am just reiterating the difference because of the thread you posted the other day where you were asking about interchangability between 39 and 51. They are totally different, the bullet isn't even the same diameter. 39 bullets are .311 inches in diameter, and x51 are .308 inches in diameter. If you somehow got a 51 to fire in a 39 gun, it would blow up. If you somehow got a 39 to fire in a 51, it probably woudn't blow up, but you would ruin the barrel/chamber nonetheless.

The PTR rifles with the big banana clips (very curved) are x39...the ones that are pretty straight are x51.

Again, you may realize this because of the other thread, but I just want to make sure you are safe!

There are chamber adapters that will allow you to shoot x39 out of a x51 gun. It is done often enough. A lot of old surplus rifles (small ring Mausers converted to x51 comes to mind) are converted, there is quite a following behind it. I myself have been looking into a conversion.

7.62russian doesnt exist. 7.62x54r the R stands for rimmed not russian. Both x54r and x39 originated in russia though.

I don't know how old you are, and I don't mean this in a slight at all, but 7.62 Russian is a commonly accepted term for 7.62x39mm as well as .30 Commie. I grew up using both terms and I still do.

[Guest Shep Stoner308]

Was trying to post a chart, did not work.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Shep Stoner308

[atlas3025]

You can shoot 7.62nato in a .308win chamber but not reverse

I think you have that backward.

[peejman]

I think you have that backward.

Nope. The .308 WIN runs a slightly tighter headspace and per SAAMI specs, potentially a significantly higher pressure. Hence, a .308 round could blow up a 7.62 NATO gun.

Also, the 7.62 NATO brass is typically thicker walled than commercial .308, so the 7.62 NATO case has slightly less interior volume. So if you're reloading and put a .308 powder charge in 7.62 NATO brass, you could over-pressure it.

[Murgatroy]

Nope. The .308 WIN runs a slightly tighter headspace and per SAAMI specs, potentially a significantly higher pressure. Hence, a .308 round could blow up a 7.62 NATO gun.

Also, the 7.62 NATO brass is typically thicker walled than commercial .308, so the 7.62 NATO case has slightly less interior volume. So if you're reloading and put a .308 powder charge in 7.62 NATO brass, you could over-pressure it.

Yup.

There is a lot of speculation about this, but all of my research on the matter says the same thing. Commercial loads are not safe in surplus NATO chambered weapons.

This of course is the opposite of the .223 vs 5.56 rule, which is what I think confuses a lot of folks.

[nightrunner]

I think you have that backward.

Not to my knowledge. .308win is the higher pressure round between the two with 7.62nato being lower pressure. Now when comparing .223rem and 5.56nato, 5.56nato is the higher pressure round and .223rem is the lower pressure round. And it is safe to fire .223rem in a 5.56nato chamber.

Edit: i guess a couple other guys already explained it pretty well.

Edited July 19, 2012 by nightrunner

[atlas3025]

Thanks! I had read a couple of articles on this, and may have gotten it backwards. I need to go dig those up. I have shot both out of my scar with no high pressure signs, but that may be because they were all commercial. The Federal Gold Medal 168 SMK's work great in the gun.

[peejman]

Thanks! I had read a couple of articles on this, and may have gotten it backwards. I need to go dig those up. I have shot both out of my scar with no high pressure signs, but that may be because they were all commercial. The Federal Gold Medal 168 SMK's work great in the gun.

I believe it's mostly an issue with older battle rifles. The main point being, we simply don't know whether the old 7.62 NATO guns can handle .308. Guys are unwilling to risk blowing up their rare, expensive toys to find out. New stuff should be designed to handle .308.

And as Murgatroy said, there's lots of speculation. Personally, I'm not convinced that the difference in headspace makes any real difference. There may be some effect on accuracy and cycling (for semi-auto's) but that's never been proven conclusively in my mind. You can find instances where small changes made a difference on individual rifles, but to apply that across the board is quite a stretch. I'm also not convinced the pressures really are different. The pressure value for 7.62 NATO was converted from the old system that was notoriously inconsistent and inaccurate. So are the pressures really different? There's probably a few people who work for the ammo companies that know, but they're not allowed to talk about it.