Moral dilema

[DaveS]

It may not be obvious who the actual victim is. Then again it may be quite clear. If my wife tries to stab me, I'll take the knife away from her, but I won't then start stabbing her.

I agree with escalation of force. I'll call 911. I'll yell at the aggressor to stop. I'll keep assessing the situation. I'll pepper spray him if possible. But if he doesn't stop, I'll stop him. I won't go hands-on either with someone armed with a blade. But there is very little physical danger to myself if I shoot someone who is stabbing someone else. Legally or civilly, maybe. Especially civilly.

I couldn't find the video I was looking for (it involves a man stabbing his estranged wife while people walk by), but I found this one. Looks like it's from the Netherregions. Sorry, I won't call the cops and leave, or call the cops and watch while a woman is murdered. If you can do so and live with yourself, fine for you.

Of course, he may have just been defending himself from her.

http://www.liveleak....=5e1_1199622703

I think everyone here would "ACT" in some fashion or another. I feel personally that pulling "Toad" out of his holster and "shooting" would not be my first choice. Maybe not even my last. Anyone with anykind or any amount of Law Enforcement, Fire and/or EMT experiance knows that walking into a "domestic" situation is one of the most dangerous and one of the most unpredicatable situations that you can get into!

But standing by and doing "NOTHING", I don't think is what everyone means here.

[Clod Stomper]

If it means that I saved myself AND my family from financial ruin, then you better believe I can live with myself. No regrets at all, friend.

I'll see your attempt to gain the moral high ground and raise you responsibility as a father and husband over all.

I totally agree that your first responsibility is to your family.

Not attempting to gain any moral high ground. Just saying that it would be difficult to live with myself if I watched an innocent person get murdered. Wait, I may be wrong about that too. I probably could live with myself. But if my wife was with me or found out that I had the ability and opportunity to help someone in that situation and didn't, she would lose respect for me. That respect is worth more to me than any amount of money.

Like another poster said, I could care less about "society". My love is all reserved for my family and close friends. The only emotion I have for others is hatred and anger when some worthless fool endangers (even accidentally) the life or well-being of my loved ones.

That said, like I said before, I won't stand by and watch an innocent get stabbed, even if the only way to stop it is to use deadly force. Not because I have any love for the person or it will make me feel bad if she's killed. Maybe it's just principle. Then again, maybe I'm talking out of my arse. I've never been in such a situation. I might wet my pants and run away screaming like a little girl. Who knows.

[Clod Stomper]

I think everyone here would "ACT" in some fashion or another. I feel personally that pulling "Toad" out of his holster and "shooting" would not be my first choice. Maybe not even my last. Anyone with anykind or any amount of Law Enforcement, Fire and/or EMT experiance knows that walking into a "domestic" situation is one of the most dangerous and one of the most unpredicatable situations that you can get into!

But standing by and doing "NOTHING", I don't think is what everyone means here.

No disagreement. Whipping out Roscoe wouldn't be my first move either. I know most have said they would do something. Like everything else in life, it's all situation-dependent.

[DaveS]

No disagreement. Whipping out Roscoe wouldn't be my first move either. I know most have said they would do something. Like everything else in life, it's all situation-dependent.

How correct you are sir!

[Spook]

I’m 58 years old and if I see someone stabbing another person to death, I’m doing the same thing I was trained as a Police Officer to do; I’m pointing my weapon at them and ordering them to stop. What happens after that is up to them. I’ll survive the legal fallout if there is any, but I couldn’t sleep at night if I stood by and watched someone be killed.

My vote for the best response in this thread. For those who ignore the plight of an innocent peson being slaughtered I hope you enjoy the potential financial advantages for you and yours. Personally, I couldn't. God bless us all.

[Spook]

I totally agree that your first responsibility is to your family.

Not attempting to gain any moral high ground. Just saying that it would be difficult to live with myself if I watched an innocent person get murdered. Wait, I may be wrong about that too. I probably could live with myself. But if my wife was with me or found out that I had the ability and opportunity to help someone in that situation and didn't, she would lose respect for me. That respect is worth more to me than any amount of money.

Like another poster said, I could care less about "society". My love is all reserved for my family and close friends. The only emotion I have for others is hatred and anger when some worthless fool endangers (even accidentally) the life or well-being of my loved ones.

That said, like I said before, I won't stand by and watch an innocent get stabbed, even if the only way to stop it is to use deadly force. Not because I have any love for the person or it will make me feel bad if she's killed. Maybe it's just principle. Then again, maybe I'm talking out of my arse. I've never been in such a situation. I might wet my pants and run away screaming like a little girl. Who knows.

Question - you are worried more about what your wife would think and her "respect" than about some innocent person's life? Did I read that incorrectly? And worth more than money? Maybe I just misunderstood. Please clarify for me. Thanks a lot.

[DaveS]

How is this any different than the case the other day where the old man at the Internet Cafe in FLA shot the two robbers? No charges against him, and the robbers had not actually shot anyone...yet. In this case, a stabbing is occuring.

Back to the Clint Eastwood quote:

From "The Naked Gun"

Frank: Yes. Well, when I see 5 weirdos dressed in togas stabbing a guy in the middle of the park in full view of 100 people, I shoot the bastards. That's my policy.

Mayor: That was a Shakespeare in the Park production of Julius Caesar, you moron! You killed 5 actors! Good ones!

It was totally clear in the internet cafe who the aggressors were and that the elderly man himself was in danger. As stated before, if I/We/You...shoot someone in defense of a third party, who's the real victim? what's the chances of hitting an inocent bystander or even the person we were trying to save? Unless I absolutely without a doubt know 100 and 10% that I'm right in a shoot....it ain't going to happen. Angles of fire has to be right, my safety has to be right, safety of bystanders has to be right...too many things to have to think about in a split second! Hell...you'd just be better off to run over the perp with you car! Safer on you and a whole lot less legal problems!

I can bet ya'll one thing...if you are involved in a shooting situation...I bet the court gets your posts and facebook pages...How many of ya'll just said you would shoot someone? Me? Nope...

I'll help some kind of way...not with a gun...

Dave

Edited July 21, 2012 by wd-40

[Clod Stomper]

Sounds cold, doesn't it? But yes, the love and respect of my family IS worth more to me than a stranger's life. And certainly worth more than money. Would I trade my wife for a trillion dollars? Nope. Sounds like a given, but there are many who would do just that. No, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone on this board.

Maybe I should just retract everything I've said and shut up in this thread. I can't seem to get any point across clearly. I did say I WOULD act, up to and including deadly force. Because it's the right thing to do, not because I have feelings for a stranger.

As I said before, I've never been in the situation, and I hope I never am. My whole philosophy may change in an instant. I may be scared to the point of incontinence (doubt it, that's never happened to me in stressful situations before) or I may suddenly feel such sympathy for the victim and anger toward the aggressor (I CAN see that happening, maybe) that I rip off his arm and beat him to death with it (also unlikely).

My point is, I Just. Don't. Know. As I said before, it's all situation dependent.

I'm gonna shut up now.

[maroonandwhite]

My vote for the best response in this thread. For those who ignore the plight of an innocent peson being slaughtered I hope you enjoy the potential financial advantages for you and yours. Personally, I couldn't. God bless us all.

Again, no one said they would ignore the situation.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

[Spook]

Sounds cold, doesn't it? But yes, the love and respect of my family IS worth more to me than a stranger's life. And certainly worth more than money. Would I trade my wife for a trillion dollars? Nope. Sounds like a given, but there are many who would do just that. No, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone on this board.

Maybe I should just retract everything I've said and shut up in this thread. I can't seem to get any point across clearly. I did say I WOULD act, up to and including deadly force. Because it's the right thing to do, not because I have feelings for a stranger.

As I said before, I've never been in the situation, and I hope I never am. My whole philosophy may change in an instant. I may be scared to the point of incontinence (doubt it, that's never happened to me in stressful situations before) or I may suddenly feel such sympathy for the victim and anger toward the aggressor (I CAN see that happening, maybe) that I rip off his arm and beat him to death with it (also unlikely).

My point is, I Just. Don't. Know. As I said before, it's all situation dependent.

I'm gonna shut up now.

Me, too. I'm not saying you are wrong. Guess we just think differently. Hope none do us ever have to find out what we would do.

[Makiaveli]

TMF 18B, on 18 July 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:

Well, I think for the sake of the scenario it should be assumed that it is immediately obvious that an innocent is being assaulted.

Can you be 100% SURE BEFORE you pull the trigger?

Do you have to be? Legally or morally I mean?

My point being is you find out later she was completely innocent, and since you had that 5% doubt you let her die. You cool with that? Versus you shoot the guy and find out that yes she started it, he had been stabbed and was stabbing her and you killed him. Ok that's less black and white than the first scenario, but he was stabbing someone who wasn't a threat any longer.

Yes mistakes can happen. You can be justified and still wind up in trouble. But the idea of watching someone get murdered? I think that's worth the risk. Otherwise my son would grow up thinking it's ok to let other people die.

[DaveTN]

Well, so much for a “moral dilemmaâ€, there isn’t any on this forum.

There are two sides, most are on one side or the other with very few in the middle.

[daddyo]

Not attempting to gain any moral high ground. Just saying that it would be difficult to live with myself if I watched an innocent person get murdered.

Sorry, I just didn't know how else to interpret this:

If you can do so and live with yourself, fine for you.

[daddyo]

My vote for the best response in this thread. For those who ignore the plight of an innocent peson being slaughtered I hope you enjoy the potential financial advantages for you and yours. Personally, I couldn't. God bless us all.

Edited July 21, 2012 by DaddyO

[Guest Wildogre]

My 2 cents, I would have to do something.

Call 911 of course.

I normally have a flashlight set on strobe, gas stations have things you can throw, window washer sticks, trashcans, my key ring has a loud whistle on it, what do I have in my car?. If I can distract the guy I can buy everyone time, me the, woman, and the cops. One of the posters above mentioned pepper spray that may be the best option here.

The point is I would have to do something, what I do not know, but I now have something else to think about.

[DaveS]

TMF 18B, on 18 July 2012 - 07:11 AM, said:

Well, I think for the sake of the scenario it should be assumed that it is immediately obvious that an innocent is being assaulted.

Do you have to be? Legally or morally I mean?

My point being is you find out later she was completely innocent, and since you had that 5% doubt you let her die. You cool with that? Versus you shoot the guy and find out that yes she started it, he had been stabbed and was stabbing her and you killed him. Ok that's less black and white than the first scenario, but he was stabbing someone who wasn't a threat any longer.

Yes mistakes can happen. You can be justified and still wind up in trouble. But the idea of watching someone get murdered? I think that's worth the risk. Otherwise my son would grow up thinking it's ok to let other people die.

As far as I know sir, she wasn't killed. If they are in a car, and unless I walk up to said vehicle, I would not know if she/he was being stabbed or not. I will awaken at 5 am to go to work on post, and I will awaken at 4 am to work the refuge. I will stand in front of the mirror, look at my self and say "what a beautiful day today is"....shave and go to work.

None of my business...

Now, if some thug comes out of walmart, kicks and beats down a young or elderly lady to rob them...I KNOW who the agressor is....I WILL take action...period. Under the scenario given (please go back and read it very carefully), I probably would NOT take lethal action.

Don't pull this "my wife", my daughter crap. If I caught ANYONE hurting my family...well....anyways....

Dave

[Jesse]

Why not shoot him in the legs or butt? Most people would give up on that note. And you wouldnt need a kill shot.

[Jesse]

Also i couldnt stand by and watch someone being killed. They could have kids waiting for them to come home. Just a sad thought letting someone stabb another to death. Id def shoot them in a non fatal location at first. You aint gotta kill them, just stop the crime til cops get there.

[DaveS]

Why not shoot him in the legs or butt? Most people would give up on that note. And you wouldnt need a kill shot.

I believe we are trying to decide who is the actual victim or actual aggressor is. Since I don't know, I'm not going to "shoot" the wrong person. PERIOD!

[daddyo]

Why not shoot him in the legs or butt? Most people would give up on that note. And you wouldnt need a kill shot.

Are you really that good a shot under stress?

[Jesse]

Im saying if you were standing back watching you should have time to aim at a leg and get off a good shot as long as you werent the one being attacked. Where did the cop shoot this guy?

[enfield]

Also i couldnt stand by and watch someone being killed. They could have kids waiting for them to come home. Just a sad thought letting someone stabb another to death. Id def shoot them in a non fatal location at first. You aint gotta kill them, just stop the crime til cops get there.

What if the BG has a gun and shoots you in return? Shooting to wound is never a good idea -- if you only wound the BG, be prepared to shoot him again really soon. Shoot to STOP the threat.

[DaveTN]

Where did the cop shoot this guy?

At Harry’s Food Mart.

Sorry, it was a joke. They shot him in the neck….in the parking lot of Harry’s Food Mart.

Edited July 22, 2012 by DaveTN

[DaveS]

Im saying if you were standing back watching you should have time to aim at a leg and get off a good shot as long as you werent the one being attacked. Where did the cop shoot this guy?

Without going back to reread (I'm sure someone will correct me), I seem to remember that they were in a car. Keep in mind that leg shots and "butt" shots can be just as deadly as a headshot...just not as quick.

Dave

[Jesse]

yes it can be just as deadly, but the thread was about what would you do in that situation. If i came up on a guy stabbing a screaming women I def would not turn my back and leave, and cause I'm not sure whats going on and who's who I wouldnt want to shoot to kill either. IMO the best thing to do is try and stop the crime wihtout using lethal force. If at all possible I would have aimed at a leg, butt and shoulder before I went for the Chest and Head area.

If he dies then so be it, hopefully the judge would understand that you were trying to save a life even though you didnt know the sitiuation.

thats prob what I would do and hope for the best.