Moral dilema

[Guest President Fernatt]

Someone should make a poll b/c the age break-up would interest me too.

Example:

I'm 21-40 years old and would shoot to end the threat in this situation even with limited details/reasoning.

I'm 41-80 years old and would shoot to end the threat in this situation even with limited details/reasoning.

I'm 21-40 years old and would not shoot to end the threat in this situation.due to limited details/reasoning.

I'm 41-80 years old and would not shoot to end the threat in this situation due to limited details/reasoning.

[DaveS]

Someone should make a poll b/c the age break-up would interest me too.

Example:

I'm 21-40 years old and would shoot to end the threat in this situation even with limited details/reasoning.

I'm 41-80 years old and would shoot to end the threat in this situation even with limited details/reasoning.

I'm 21-40 years old and would not shoot to end the threat in this situation.due to limited details/reasoning.

I'm 41-80 years old and would not shoot to end the threat in this situation due to limited details/reasoning.

OK Friend....you started the poll, I'll play along.....

I'm 57 years old and WOULD NOT shoot to end the threat in this situation due to limited details/Sound reasoning.

Dave

[Spook]

This is indeed one of the more interesting threads in a while and a great debate. I judge no one and understand each makes his own decision based on personal beliefs. For those who would choose not to intervene how you would feel if it was your wife, daughter, mother, sister, or other loved one who was innocently being stabbed. Please don't try to spin by restating different scenarios, other what ifs, etc. Lets just assume your aforementioned loved one was being attacked by some guy in a store or other any other place. Would you mind if I (carrying a handgun) walked up and didn't take action but only called 911? Or did absolutely nothing at all and left the scene?

Regardless of your own answer, please also ask your wife, daughter, mother, sister or other loved one what they would like me do do?

For those who would shoot how do you make your decision? There is so much at stake. If you make the wrong move you may not be around to protect your loved ones. As has been stated this largely seems to be a moral vs. legal decision. There is no single answer for everyone. I appreciate all the previous input. It has made me seriously think about both sides of the argument.

[Oh Shoot]

It depends on how this Zimmerman thing ends up. That trial is going to mean a lot on the future of concealed carry.

I don't see how Zim case relates to anything discussed in this thread.

Also, it's only a state trial by jury. I don't expect it to influence anything in national jurisprudence any more than the first OJ tria did regarding first degree murder.

Short of some principle involved that gets appealed to SCOTUS, I don't see how it's gonna change anything nationwide, doubt it will even change FL's self-defense statutes.

- OS

[Caster]

34 and I am not shooting either.

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

More than likely I'm doing number 1. I would just call the cops & wait for them to show up & do their job. I am not a cop.

I would be able to live with myself. I cant take care of everyone nor should I be expected to. I take care of myself, as she should have by getting her own gun & carry permit.....

[MattCary]

Would this be one of those situations where drawing and holding at gun point until LEO arrives be an appropriate response?

I also agree with Lnksys, on building up, without necessarily going right to guns.

[TMF]

Here's another thing that happened in Clarksville a few years ago....

A man with a handgun and carry permit came across a man being beaten by another man with a ball bat. He ordered the man to "stop" and when he didn't, he pulled his weapon and shot and seriously injured the man with the bat. The man shot was actually the victim of a robbery by the man who was getting beat. He had taken the bat away from the thug and whooped his A** with the bat. The shooter was NOT convicted, but was ordered to pay $150,000.00 in medical bills, pain and suffering and damages.

Dave

Well that's life sometimes. No one can control the future or predict it, so it is not a deciding factor when making a decision based in morality for me. Perhaps I just haven't had enough bad experiences from intervening into situations. I've never had to pull my gun out in the states before, but I have become involved. In fact, the times I became involved I wasn't even armed.

I think the fact that we carry is kinda inconsequential here. Whether or not I'm armed would not stop me from intervening in someone's brutal assault or murder, nor would the legal ramifications be going through my mind at the moment.

The question, as I understood it from the OP was one of morals: would you or wouldn't you? Some believe that it compromises their morals to put themselves and family in financial danger, as could potentially happen. That is a valid concern. Me, I feel I've risked it all for a lot less before, and in one case for two people I should have been compelled to let die. The same morality that causes me to do the right thing for my family is the same that causes me to do the right things for others. Whatever is most immediately in need will get my attention.

[DaveTN]

I’m 58 years old and if I see someone stabbing another person to death, I’m doing the same thing I was trained as a Police Officer to do; I’m pointing my weapon at them and ordering them to stop. What happens after that is up to them. I’ll survive the legal fallout if there is any, but I couldn’t sleep at night if I stood by and watched someone be killed.

[chances R]

I'm 58, and TMF and Dave both said it best for me. At least having the perogative to carry in this State and for the most part, in this country, gives us the option to react as each of us sees fit at the time.

[tnhawk]

If your wife or child was the victim, would you want someone to stop an attack on them, or just turn their head and walk away as it wasn't their family?

[tnhawk]

Someone should make a poll b/c the age break-up would interest me too.

Example:

I'm 21-40 years old and would shoot to end the threat in this situation even with limited details/reasoning.

I'm 41-80 years old and would shoot to end the threat in this situation even with limited details/reasoning.

I'm 21-40 years old and would not shoot to end the threat in this situation.due to limited details/reasoning.

I'm 41-80 years old and would not shoot to end the threat in this situation due to limited details/reasoning.

5. None of the above.

I'm old and hope I'd do what needed to do done based on the circumstances.

[daddyo]

If your wife or child was the victim, would you want someone to stop an attack on them, or just turn their head and walk away as it wasn't their family?

Can you point to any posts in this thread where it was said that anyone "would just turn my head and walk away"? Not a single person has said that they would just ignore what was happening, even if they said they would not directly intervene.

If it were my daughter or my wife, and someone killed her attacker, yes, I would be grateful. However, not everyone is of like mind.

Edited July 20, 2012 by DaddyO

[enfield]

Would this be one of those situations where drawing and holding at gun point until LEO arrives be an appropriate response?

I also agree with Lnksys, on building up, without necessarily going right to guns.

You can't hold someone at gunpoint unless you're willing to pull the trigger. Also, while holding someone at gunpoint, some other well-meaning citizen/vigilante may come up and shoot YOU.

[enfield]

My wife carries. My daughters bear their own responsibility. If you were to come upon one of my relatives being stabbed in a car, I'd expect you to exercise sound judgement, considering both your circumstances and theirs. I don't expect other people to protect me and mine. That's why we carry.

[Caster]

My wife carries. My daughters bear their own responsibility. If you were to come upon one of my relatives being stabbed in a car, I'd expect you to exercise sound judgement, considering both your circumstances and theirs. I don't expect other people to protect me and mine. That's why we carry.

Thats right. I don't expect nothing from anybody.

[maroonandwhite]

My wife carries. My daughters bear their own responsibility. If you were to come upon one of my relatives being stabbed in a car, I'd expect you to exercise sound judgement, considering both your circumstances and theirs. I don't expect other people to protect me and mine. That's why we carry.

+1

[Clod Stomper]

It may not be obvious who the actual victim is. Then again it may be quite clear. If my wife tries to stab me, I'll take the knife away from her, but I won't then start stabbing her.

I agree with escalation of force. I'll call 911. I'll yell at the aggressor to stop. I'll keep assessing the situation. I'll pepper spray him if possible. But if he doesn't stop, I'll stop him. I won't go hands-on either with someone armed with a blade. But there is very little physical danger to myself if I shoot someone who is stabbing someone else. Legally or civilly, maybe. Especially civilly.

I couldn't find the video I was looking for (it involves a man stabbing his estranged wife while people walk by), but I found this one. Looks like it's from the Netherregions. Sorry, I won't call the cops and leave, or call the cops and watch while a woman is murdered. If you can do so and live with yourself, fine for you.

Of course, he may have just been defending himself from her.

http://www.liveleak....=5e1_1199622703

Edited July 20, 2012 by Clod Stomper

[daddyo]

Sorry, I won't call the cops and leave, or call the cops and watch while a woman is murdered. If you can do so and live with yourself, fine for you.

If it means that I saved myself AND my family from financial ruin, then you better believe I can live with myself. No regrets at all, friend.

I'll see your attempt to gain the moral high ground and raise you responsibility as a father and husband over all.

[robbiev]

I was saying for the sake of the scenario posed since this is being decided in a bubble. The OP wasn't posing a "what if", he was posing a "what would you do". If it is a "what if" then I could wonder if perhaps the victim is a lizard person, and will quickly recover from her stab wounds and could handle the assaulter on her own. Geez, I didn't know it was that difficult of a concept to grasp.

The original post wasn't difficult to grasp. MY question was, you see a woman being stabbed, so you know for a fact, or you should just assume, that the ONLY possibility that exists is that she is being stabbed by an attacker who is attacking her unprovoked for no reason, therefore the guy MUST be the bad guy, because no other possibility exists. That seemed to be the implication, based on what I what I took from the statement I was replying to.

Edited July 20, 2012 by robbiev

[TMF]

The original post wasn't difficult to grasp. MY question was, you see a woman being stabbed, so you know for a fact, or you should just assume, that the ONLY possibility that exists is that she is being stabbed by an attacker who is attacking her unprovoked for no reason, therefore the guy MUST be the bad guy, because no other possibility exists. That seemed to be the implication, based on what I what I took from the statement I was replying to.

No, the point I was making, for the sake of the scenario, was to assume she was being murdered. It wasn't a question of "would you do it if.." it was "would you do it".

[robbiev]

No, the point I was making, for the sake of the scenario, was to assume she was being murdered. It wasn't a question of "would you do it if.." it was "would you do it".

Fair enough.

[JAB]

The "... I only defend myself and my loved ones" argument is what deteriorates society.

JMHO

Good thing I don't give a flying f...um...fig about 'society'. I care about me and mine (and I include many of my friends in the idea of 'mine', not just my immediate family.) 'Society' can go to hell. Personally, I'd say that people who walk around being potential victims because they won't even do something so basic as take responsibility for their own defense (be it with a firearm, pepper spray or a stout club) is what deteriorates society. To me, then, 'society' is already pretty deteriorated and I'm not throwing myself on the pyre to try and save it.

Some keep saying that this is a 'moral issue vs. legal issue' and that some people are hesitant to do the 'moral' thing because of 'legal' concerns. That is not entirely the case. See, I feel no moral obligation, whatsoever, to take a significant risk of physical OR financial injury to myself to save a stranger. To me, morality (and you can throw religion in there, too, if you want) is sometimes simply a way for 'society' to get individuals to do what 'society' thinks they should do even when it goes against that individual's best interests but, as I said earlier, society can go to hell as far as I am concerned. My morality is my own and my morality does not require me to take such a risk on behalf of a stranger regardless of gender, etc. nor does my morality lead me to expect anyone else to do so on my behalf. Helping someone who needs a hand, if I can without harm coming to me, is one thing. Taking a serious risk for someone I don't even know is quite another. Some here may think that means I am not very moral, at all. Some may think I am 'heartless' or 'not a good person'. I'm okay with that - I live up to my own standards and really don't care whether or not I live up to anyone else's.

Along with expectations to do what 'society' says is moral comes the expectation that one should feel guilty for not doing what 'society' says is the moral thing to do. Feelings of guilt or fear of feeling guilty can be a powerful motivator. Such feelings are often used by various people to try and manipulate others into doing what they say is 'right'. However, it isn't all that effective when used on those of us who refuse to feel guilt simply because someone else thinks we should.

Oh, I'm 41 and wouldn't shoot.

Edited July 20, 2012 by JAB

[gregintenn]

If your wife or child was the victim, would you want someone to stop an attack on them, or just turn their head and walk away as it wasn't their family?

My wife can defend herself. My children are rarely in public without one, if not both of us. School is the one place my children are vunerable to something such as this. However, there are gunbuster signs clearly posted, so it shouldn't be an issue there, right?

[atlas3025]

How is this any different than the case the other day where the old man at the Internet Cafe in FLA shot the two robbers? No charges against him, and the robbers had not actually shot anyone...yet. In this case, a stabbing is occuring.

Back to the Clint Eastwood quote:

From "The Naked Gun"

Frank: Yes. Well, when I see 5 weirdos dressed in togas stabbing a guy in the middle of the park in full view of 100 people, I shoot the bastards. That's my policy.

Mayor: That was a Shakespeare in the Park production of Julius Caesar, you moron! You killed 5 actors! Good ones!

Edited July 20, 2012 by atlas3025