Moral dilema

[Guest drv2fst]

I think there are two issues here that are causing the disagreements.

1) Legal vs Moral - The topic of the thread is moral issue. Many of the posts are focused more about the legal issue(s). I think the moral issue is clear and the legal issues are quite problematic. I agree with many that legally this could get very ugly. But that does not really change the morality. What is right or wrong does not (in theory) change depending on the cost.

2) Knowing vs Doing - I think we are more likely to agree that we KNOW what is right in this situation. I think many here are saying that even thought they KNOW what is right they will do what is best for them. To make my point: consider what you think the "armed citizen" should do from the perspective of the victim (or the husband or father of the victim). If if was your wife or daughter what should the "armed citizen" do to stop the attack and potentially save her life? That's KNOWing what is right. DOing what is right is much harder. You have to ask yourself if you are willing to put yourself in harms way for the benefit of another.

[Guest drv2fst]

Help me understand how we went from a woman being attacked (for whatever reason) to the extermination of the Jews?

I was asked if there was proof that one should get involved vs just saying "it's not my problem". My answer is, history is full of examples of where people took the attitude that violence to others was not their problem. When people take that attitude it does not end well.

[Caster]

Help me understand how we went from a woman being attacked (for whatever reason) to the extermination of the Jews?

It's the the most popular argument there is when apathy, motivation, conviction and responsibility are argued over.

I don't accept it's validity in argument either. It wasn't another Jew turning their heads and walking away. It was the lousy german citizens standing there not caring or even cheering it on. The Jewish people had no means of defense. Sticks and stones? I have a means of defense. So does everyone else here. If you choose not to utilize it, why is that my problem?

[chances R]

If I were to be judged by my peers, in this situation, I was hoping that most of them would be from this TGO forum. Guess I am mistaken. It would be interesting to see how this breaks down by age. Very similar situation in stopping to render aid at an auto accident. Many people say 'no' because of fear of liability. Other situations are out there, I'm sure. But to me, if someone is clearly being attacked, and in this situation stabbed----repeatedly---- well I've stated my reaction. My moral conviction is much more important to me than any possible legal ramification of my actions.

[daddyo]

If I were to be judged by my peers, in this situation, I was hoping that most of them would be from this TGO forum. Guess I am mistaken. It would be interesting to see how this breaks down by age. Very similar situation in stopping to render aid at an auto accident. Many people say 'no' because of fear of liability. Other situations are out there, I'm sure. But to me, if someone is clearly being attacked, and in this situation stabbed----repeatedly---- well I've stated my reaction. My moral conviction is much more important to me than any possible legal ramification of my actions.

Your reasons for carrying are your own. My reasons are mine. You are not qualified to judge my motives nor those of anyone else.

[chances R]

Your reasons for carrying are your own. My reasons are mine. You are not qualified to judge my motives nor those of anyone else.

I agree with that 100%. Didn't judge you, but I am surprised many could stand by and watch such an attack, and do nothing. I will also add that this situation is totally different from robbery, etc. especially if it's not my stuff, where for the most part, it is either money or property that is stolen. No big deal, no bodily harm, maybe a little bruising of the ego, etc. and in such a case, my weapon stays holstered.

Edited July 19, 2012 by chances R

[TMF]

Let your conscience be your guide.

With that, keep in mind that not every one sees things the way we do. I would like to go back to a time when I didn't feel the need to carry a gun everywhere I go. Unfortunately I've seen the true nature of man enough times to know that there are no safety nets in life, and it all could change in a matter of seconds at the hands of someone else. Also, I'm responsible for the lives of my family now, and I have a duty to protect them.

However, not everyone sees the world through our eyes. I guess you could call it ignorance, but just think of how many don't really know the evil lurking inside folks. I think of my daughter. No matter how well I teach her, she would never truly know until she saw it for herself, and I never want that day to come. Even my wife still believes in the goodness in all of us even when I tell her she might as well believe in unicorns and fairy dust. Does that mean she deserves to die when I'm not there to protect her? Not to say that the onus is on any of you to protect her, but saying that she should have protected herself and therefore deserves no protection from anyone else is a little heartless.

I think of a story that happened right here in Clarksville last year of a 17 year old girl who was almost abducted at gunpoint in the Walmart parking lot. The man forced the young girl out of her car at gunpoint and was forcing her into his truck when an unarmed 42 year old woman intervened, as she felt that something was wrong. Apparently her involvment spooked the would-be kidnapper and he fled. The same guy tried this not too long after in Providence but the girl got away. What if this woman hadn't intervened? I'm sure that he wasn't planning on taking her to the zoo. I'm pretty sure he had some rape on his mind, and maybe even murder. Who knows? What I do know is that if someone hadn't intervened we would have that answer. Perhaps that 42 year old mother was putting herself in danger. Perhaps it could have went down differently and the gunman would have shot her. Lotta maybes. But if we play the "what if" game let's say that she did nothing. What if she decided to ignore it, or just call 911 and wait for the police? It would have been too late to catch him most likely. What if the man killed the girl? What do you think life would be like for that 42 year old mother?

Like I said, let your conscience be your guide. Every scenario is different. I don't judge anyone that puts their family's needs first, but also keep in mind that some people just can't defend themselves. It's not that they made a choice to be a victim, they just don't know any better, or are too afraid. They certainly don't deserve to be lumped into a category of "well, too bad... they shoulda defended themselves like me."

[daddyo]

I agree with that 100%. Didn't judge you, but I am surprised many could stand by and watch such an attack, and do nothing. I will also add that this situation is totally different from robbery, etc. where for the most part, it is either money or property that is stolen. No big deal, no bodily harm, maybe a little bruising of the ego, etc. and in such a case, my weapon stays holstered.

Then we're even. I don't understand how someone can go charging into a situation that they don't have full knowledge of and completely disregard the consequences not only to themselves but to their family as well.

[enfield]

Help me understand how we went from a woman being attacked (for whatever reason) to the extermination of the Jews?

Reductio ad Hitlerum.

Edited July 19, 2012 by enfield

[gregintenn]

I didn't gather enough information from the original post, or the article linked, to tell you what I'd do in that situation. I guess I really wouldn't know until I was placed in the situation.

[Caster]

Okay, answer me this: Where is this stand by and watch nonsense coming from? I don't think ANYONE here would/could/will stand by and watch. There is a great difference in getting out of Dodge as fast as possible and standing by to watch. If I had been in this situation, I would not KNOW that the person screaming had been stabbed until I saw it on the news that evening. I don't think anyone here who would choose not to be involved would be sitting on the tailgate with a soda and popcorn watching the show.

It's easy for any of us to critique one another and make claims to our intents, but the truth will only out when the ball drops. If the ball drops in or around my court, I'm not playing the game, I'm getting out. Everyone claims to carry a weapon for self defense or personal protection. That's a very vague claim. I like to be very specific as to why I carry my pistol. There's only one reason. I carry to cover my retreat. If and when anything bad ever happens, my wife and I know the plan. Withdraw covering your butt. Get in the truck. There's a rifle there if trouble is in pursuit close, but more than likely, there will be skid marks on the ground in the pattern of Nitto Grapplers.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Caster

[RobertNashville]

...more than likely, there will be skid marks on the ground in the pattern of Nitto Grapplers.

Nitto's? Really??? Real men use Yokohama Advans!

[maroonandwhite]

BFG AT's FTW!

[Caster]

Nitto's? Really??? Real men use Yokohama Advans!

Real men run anything that's new and free.

[RobertNashville]

Real men run anything that's new and free.

Free? Did Obummer buy your tires for you?

[Caster]

Nope...O'fatherinlaw..."O"wner of the shop where I work...."O"wner of the house I live in....

[DaveS]

Here's another thing that happened in Clarksville a few years ago....

A man with a handgun and carry permit came across a man being beaten by another man with a ball bat. He ordered the man to "stop" and when he didn't, he pulled his weapon and shot and seriously injured the man with the bat. The man shot was actually the victim of a robbery by the man who was getting beat. He had taken the bat away from the thug and whooped his A** with the bat. The shooter was NOT convicted, but was ordered to pay $150,000.00 in medical bills, pain and suffering and damages.

I personally would have to be 100% sure of a situation BEFORE I intervened. If and elderly lady was getting hurt with someone stomping her trying to get her purse, I would probably butt in.

I put my nose into someone elses business one time before...It cost me roughly $5,000.00 in legal fees that I will never get back! So, I'm pretty dang particular what I get involved with!

Dave

[Ray Z]

It depends on how this Zimmerman thing ends up. That trial is going to mean a lot on the future of concealed carry.

[DaveS]

So Caster, you really believe that a cop is always there when you need them? A house is on fire and someone is inside......just wait for the fire dept, they are paid to get the people out? I guess none of us really need our guns or fire extinguishers. Yeah, I know it sucks....the legal crap....but then again by doing the right thing at the right time I can live with myself. You MIGHT get arrested, but it's doubtful given the circumstances as presented by the OP.

I'm a retired Firefighter....you have no idea!!!

It's not about being ARRESTED....It's the CIVIL SUITS and/or legal expenses afterwards, if you are not at least 100 and 10% right when you act!!! That's what will stop me from acting again!!

Dave

[DaveS]

I will protect me and mine. I don't carry a badge and I didn't sign on to be 'Protector of the Universe.' Now, if the victim were a small child (taking the risk that I've misinterpreted and the 'victim' is actually a midget gang-banger), my response would be different but with an adult - female or male - I figure that person has the same option of arming themselves as I have and a 100 lb. female can pull a trigger as well as a 300 lb. bouncer. That is why firearms are the 'great equalizer'. If they choose not to excercise that option then it isn't my responsibility to take up the slack for them.

I will not willingly interject myself into a situation that could end in legal trouble or even jail time for me on behalf of an unknown thrd party. If that makes me a 'coward' or less of 'a man' or whatever then I can live with that. As I often say, I ain't got nobody to impress.

I will also not willingly interject myself into a situation that could end with me getting killed. For all I know, the assailant might be out of his mind on PCP and shooting him might just have the effect of pissing him off and having him turn that knife on me. I just couldn't live with myself if I were dead.

I will be willing to bet...that the "Unknown 3rd party" you saved, will not give you a dime in your legal defense either! Will leave you hanging on your own!

Dave

[DaveS]

The original scenario here was a Sherriff Deputy shooting the man. The Deputy had a "duty to act" on or off duty...kinda comes with the territory. I before I retired as a Firefighter/EMT had a "duty to act" on or off duty. I, as many others was/are protected by "good samaritan" laws when we acted "off duty". That law WILL NOT protect you in all situations. If you choose to act....

Dave

[bubbiesdad]

Call the police and pepper spray the perp.

[DaveS]

My problem with a situation like this....

Getting in a position for a "good shot" meaning, not hitting the person we think we are protecting. In the process, the bad guy whips a gun of his own out and puts us "Do Gooders" on the ground....would make us all feel real smart huh? The perp is apparently stabbing someone he "knows"...If he's got a gun...where do you as a total stranger think you stand with him? Back off, call 911, give them the absolute best information THAT YOU CAN. Vehicle description and license tag number. Also note direction of travel and a description of the suspect. What good are you to anyone including the stabbing victim, if your on the asphault with a gunshot wound to your face or gut?

You'll be helping more than you think!

Dave

[billyscott]

I think Ray Z has hit on it. A lot of people are looking at Zimmerman. When you have to look at the media persecuting you, it makes you think about just turning away. This is a gun control issue.

[Links2k]

Seems as though you are going through a lot of steps for someone that lives in the combat zone of Memphis...

That's my point. If Memphis guys aren't in regular shootouts what are the chances of it happening in Mayberry?