Moral dilema

[DaveS]

Not much doubt on my part.

My "moral duty" is to protect myself and my loved ones. If a situation ever occurred that required using my last resort, I would know enough that occurred and who the players are. If I walked into the situation involving a loved one, that information at that time would be a moot point anyway, I'd have to suffer the aftermath.

I realize that under Tennessee law, you are legally allowed to defend third parties from death and / or great bodily harm. Most likely you would not see the entire event as it unfolds. It's very possible to mistake the aggressor / criminal from the innocent victim, that's occurred numerous times. It's possible the perceived victim would turn on you in defense of "her man" physically and/or in a court of law.

Getting physically involved opens up a whole can of nasties that could very well negatively effect you and your family the rest of your life, as you all are well aware of.

Once you un- holster that weapon it's too late, you're committed, and best not second guess yourself or if the perceived victim is actually the victim at all.

When you make that perceived moral personal decision to intervene, you're making that decision on your families behalf also. If you guessed right, the news media will parade you all around... in the mud.

So, it all boils down to self preservation or sacrifice. I'm definitely not cold hearted but, given the choice, I prefer to error on the side of caution and not face a judge explaining my perceived observations and improper / illegal felony actions. I know who BUBBA is and where he lives, I don't want to personally marry him. I don't want to be forced to sell everything I own by a court of law and transfer it to someone else because I made an honest error in judgment. I don't want my paycheck substantially garnished and given to another as mentioned above.

If you un- holster that gun in public, I can imagine it affecting the rest of your entire life. Will it be worth it?

P.S. I just read all the preceding posts. I just parroted what most said.

Very, Very well said!

Dave

[Guest bkelm18]

Another threat may present itself and you'd be occupied. You could get injured or killed in the process. Either takes you and the resources you provide to your family, away from them.

That's what I meant by being certain of the circumstances. The couple in the car could be a decoy for the guy around the corner in the inky shadows waiting for someone to "help", etc, etc. It's just a call that has to be made on the spot, but immediate egress would most likely be my first option.

[daddyo]

This! I could not live with myself if I did nothing but stand there and watch. Correct me if I'm wrong but, doesn't Tennessee law say that we have the right to protect ourselves AND, any innocents present?

Why do we carry? If all you're willing to do is dial 911, leave your gun at home, all you need is your telephone.

Each person's reason for carrying a firearm is a personal decision. We don't all carry for the same reasons.

[Guest Nikator]

If I was carrying and I saw this going on I'd have no choice but to help.

I'll risk an assault charge if it turns out to be a non emergency.

I'll risk a lawsuit from the baddies family if it is an emergency.

I'd simply as the judge / jury that if it was their loved one in the car and I was there with a legal gun what would they want me to do?

[Guest No Ammo]

#3. Do the morally right thing. A man does the right thing regardless of the potential consequences. All the legal hell that everyone worries about happens very, very rarely anyway. If you stand there and watch it happen I'm not sure how you would look at yourself in the mirror.

+1

I hope if I ever need help, I have the righteous person step in as I would...

I have heard to many stories of people walk by a crime in progress and just pretend is wasn't happening, many a woman raped & murdered well good people did nothing

[chances R]

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." , Edmund Burke

My 'wiring' would not let me just stand there and not intervene. Yes, call 911, but then something must be done to save someone's life. I might try and pull the women through the opposite side of the car, but the attack would be stopped, using deadly force if necessary. I couldn't live with myself otherwise. I hope no one finds themselves in this position, or one of their loved ones being victimized and find out someone there had the power to stop the attack and didn't.

[TMF]

Can you be 100% SURE BEFORE you pull the trigger?

Well that defeats the purpose of the scenario here. The question wasn't whether or not you would save someone's life that "might" be in danger. It is a question of saving someone's life that is unmistakably in danger.

[TMF]

Ok, leaving whether or not I would get involved aside, why should we assume that's immediately obvious? Should we just always assume that whatever appears obvious to us is what must be right? And I'm not trying to start any controversy or an agrument. I'm simply curious if you feel that's just simply what we should assume.

I was saying for the sake of the scenario posed since this is being decided in a bubble. The OP wasn't posing a "what if", he was posing a "what would you do". If it is a "what if" then I could wonder if perhaps the victim is a lizard person, and will quickly recover from her stab wounds and could handle the assaulter on her own. Geez, I didn't know it was that difficult of a concept to grasp.

[Guest drv2fst]

Standing by and not helping someone being stabbed to death is less evil than actually doing the stabbing yourself, but only by a small measure.

The "... I only defend myself and my loved ones" argument is what deteriorates society. Without willingness to come to the aid of others, we have no police, no fire and rescue, no military, no national guard, ...

JMHO

[daddyo]

The "... I only defend myself and my loved ones" argument is what deteriorates society.

Do you have proof of this?

[chances R]

Do you have proof of this?

Sure, just look around at other 'societies' where there is more evil than good. Many of the African nations who have wallowed in stagnation for lack of development.......every man for themselves mentality. I would say it is the same in the Middle East. Read any American History? This country was built on helping each other in times of need and why this is still the best place on earth......for the time being. So yes I can see drv31st point.

[Caster]

The "... I only defend myself and my loved ones" argument is what deteriorates society. Without willingness to come to the aid of others, we have no police, no fire and rescue, no military, no national guard, ...

JMHO

NO.

Our pooled tax dollars PAYS these people to do this job. On top of paying them money to do the job, we afford them a great deal of indemnity when they have to DO their job. That's why when you shoot the stabber, you'll probably get three hots and a cot until a judge, jury or district attorney says you were justified. The cop that puts this guy down gets paid administrative leave while he gets a free chat with a psychiatrist to make sure he's fit for duty followed by a few pats on the back for kicking some bad guy aßß.

[chances R]

So Caster, you really believe that a cop is always there when you need them? A house is on fire and someone is inside......just wait for the fire dept, they are paid to get the people out? I guess none of us really need our guns or fire extinguishers. Yeah, I know it sucks....the legal crap....but then again by doing the right thing at the right time I can live with myself. You MIGHT get arrested, but it's doubtful given the circumstances as presented by the OP.

[daddyo]

Sure, just look around at other 'societies' where there is more evil than good. Many of the African nations who have wallowed in stagnation for lack of development.......every man for themselves mentality. I would say it is the same in the Middle East. Read any American History? This country was built on helping each other in times of need and why this is still the best place on earth......for the time being. So yes I can see drv31st point.

Back when the nation was being built, you didn't have the constant threat of litigation hanging over your head if you found yourself in a bad situation. People were much more forgiving then. Not so much anymore.

I am responsible for me and my family. I won't risk their financial security by rushing in to "save the day" and I'll sleep just fine at night knowing that I am meeting my obligation as a husband and father.

[maroonandwhite]

Standing by and not helping someone being stabbed to death is less evil than actually doing the stabbing yourself, but only by a small measure.

The "... I only defend myself and my loved ones" argument is what deteriorates society. Without willingness to come to the aid of others, we have no police, no fire and rescue, no military, no national guard, ...

JMHO

Heck we mine as well pay for everyone else's food and shelter while we are at it.......oh wait...

(A stretch I know but that kind of mindset is why I believe people are so dependent on others for help now and almost expect it).

I would not go so far as to say that I would NEVER help someone in need with deadly force but again as others have said there are so many variable to consider it would be tough. I do all I can to prepare myself and my wife for any and all bad things that may happen but I have no illusion that we are bulletproof. I think others should do the same. If something were to happen to her or myself and I needed help I would hope someone would act but I would know they have themselves to consider first.

Edited July 19, 2012 by bendbolden

[Guest nasdaqtrader]

As a gun carrying preacher, (and yes, I'll try to keep this short) I want to point out that there is Biblical guidance I hope I and others would take into account after we assess a situation and determine we are in a position to give help to someone who truly is in need of it. In the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10) a man was attacked, beaten, and left for dead. Certain members of high standing (a priest and a Levite) pass on by. But a Samaritan (Samaritans were despised by the Jews) stops to help, addressing the victim's needs any way he could. A correct understanding of "love your neighbor" as explained by Jesus would compel intervention.

If it were me who were in dire need of assisance, I hope that someone would be "neighborly" to me. There will always be those who don't have compassion and those who do. But ultimately, God is my judge, not man. So my preference is to follow His guidance, and deal with the consequences with a clear conscience.

I sure hope my spelling was ok, I couldn't find a spell checker...

[Caster]

So Caster, you really believe that a cop is always there when you need them? A house is on fire and someone is inside......just wait for the fire dept, they are paid to get the people out? I guess none of us really need our guns or fire extinguishers. Yeah, I know it sucks....the legal crap....but then again by doing the right thing at the right time I can live with myself. You MIGHT get arrested, but it's doubtful given the circumstances as presented by the OP.

Give me a little credit. I'm not that stupid. BUT, I ain't doing their job unless it involves my wife. I don't care about anyone else's safety. Not even my own. If I were out alone, I MIGHT be more inclined to help, but then again, probably not. Wether she wants to admit it or not, she needs me. Work, move the couch, stomp a spider, open a jar, keep her safe. My wife needs me and putting myself in harms way jeopardizes HER livelihood. The world can piss off.

[LagerHead]

You must not watch the news a whole lot.

Do they have mirrors in prison? I'm sure they do. I for one don't want to find our for sure when I get charged for murder if I judged the situation wrong. People die every day. It's not my job or obligation to save every one of them. Even in this scenario, it's still not my obligation. My priority is me and mine. Not anyone else.

Why do we carry? Beats me. I'm just one person. Why do I carry? I carry for me. Not you. Not random people. Just me and my family.

If the news were a good indicator of the likelihood of something happening the only thing they would have time for would be stories of people defending themselves and others with their guns. Unfortunately the news is only an indicator of what people want to hear about so it's not really a good measure.

Nobody said it's your obligation to save everyone but I do believe you have an obligation to not stand there watch a woman get killed. But hey, that's just my opinion.

+1

I hope if I ever need help, I have the righteous person step in as I would...

I have heard to many stories of people walk by a crime in progress and just pretend is wasn't happening, many a woman raped & murdered well good people did nothing

God forbid that's my daughter. Or yours. I sure as hell would rather explain to a jury why I shot a scumbag than explain to a mother why I treated the brutal murder of her daughter as an inconvenience to my Wal Mart shopping trip.

[JAB]

I will protect me and mine. I don't carry a badge and I didn't sign on to be 'Protector of the Universe.' Now, if the victim were a small child (taking the risk that I've misinterpreted and the 'victim' is actually a midget gang-banger), my response would be different but with an adult - female or male - I figure that person has the same option of arming themselves as I have and a 100 lb. female can pull a trigger as well as a 300 lb. bouncer. That is why firearms are the 'great equalizer'. If they choose not to excercise that option then it isn't my responsibility to take up the slack for them.

I will not willingly interject myself into a situation that could end in legal trouble or even jail time for me on behalf of an unknown thrd party. If that makes me a 'coward' or less of 'a man' or whatever then I can live with that. As I often say, I ain't got nobody to impress.

I will also not willingly interject myself into a situation that could end with me getting killed. For all I know, the assailant might be out of his mind on PCP and shooting him might just have the effect of pissing him off and having him turn that knife on me. I just couldn't live with myself if I were dead.

Edited July 19, 2012 by JAB

[Links2k]

This country was built on helping each other in times of need and why this is still the best place on earth......for the time being.

THREAD HIJACKING IN PROGRESS....NOBODY MOVE!

Say this in the political forum and you will have your "Conservative Card" taken away.

BACK TO NORMAL PROGRAMMING....

I believe in escalation of force. If I intervened it would be with a verbal command to leave the woman alone after I call or have someone call 911. If that did not work I would throw something at him if anything is available. This way I'm still maintaining a reactionary gap. If the projectile doesn't work then I'll put the Kimber Pepper Blaster II ( GET SOME OF THIS STUFF...IT GIVES YOU ANOTHER OPTION BEFORE USING DEADLY FORCE AND CAN KEEP YOU OUT OF BUBBAS LOVING ARMS ON A COLD WINTERS NIGHT) on him. I'm not certain about shooting the guy unless he attempts to engage me. This seems like a lot, but it can all be done in a matter of seconds. We are talking about a guy with a knife (knife lovers I am not belittling the knife...in my training I have seen how fast a guy that's good with a knife can close on you and do lots of damage). It is unknown if he has a firearm. Like others have said if you aren't defending self or loved ones there is a lot of liability that comes with that $1 bullet.

As someone who has carried for my occupation and in combat I am always amazed at the amount of people that claim that they would squeeze the trigger to take a life and they have only put 20 rounds on bad guy #1 in hcp class. You don't have to go from 0 to 100 in every situation even in the situation that the op has given.

Edited July 19, 2012 by LINKS2K

[Guest drv2fst]

Do you have proof of this?

I went to history class in school from time to time. I seem to recall many Germans taking that exact stance when their Jewish neighbors were mistreated. Then again, I think the same position has been popular in many places where genocide happens. It all starts with "well it's not my family they are after". Then, later, it is.

[enfield]

As a gun carrying preacher, (and yes, I'll try to keep this short) I want to point out that there is Biblical guidance I hope I and others would take into account after we assess a situation and determine we are in a position to give help to someone who truly is in need of it. In the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10) a man was attacked, beaten, and left for dead. Certain members of high standing (a priest and a Levite) pass on by. But a Samaritan (Samaritans were despised by the Jews) stops to help, addressing the victim's needs any way he could. A correct understanding of "love your neighbor" as explained by Jesus would compel intervention.

If it were me who were in dire need of assisance, I hope that someone would be "neighborly" to me. There will always be those who don't have compassion and those who do. But ultimately, God is my judge, not man. So my preference is to follow His guidance, and deal with the consequences with a clear conscience.

I sure hope my spelling was ok, I couldn't find a spell checker...

Totally different situation!

[maroonandwhite]

Totally different situation!

I thought the same thing but I think he meant it to be more generalized and not if you just saw a random person laying bleeding on the streets. I have the same beliefs but the bible also teaches many other things in regards to taking care of you wife and kids. Again lots of variables.

[chances R]

THREAD HIJACKING IN PROGRESS....NOBODY MOVE!

Say this in the political forum and you will have your "Conservative Card" taken away.

BACK TO NORMAL PROGRAMMING....

I believe in escalation of force. If I intervened it would be with a verbal command to leave the woman alone after I call or have someone call 911. If that did not work I would throw something at him if anything is available. This way I'm still maintaining a reactionary gap. If the projectile doesn't work then I'll put the Kimber Pepper Blaster II ( GET SOME OF THIS STUFF...IT GIVES YOU ANOTHER OPTION BEFORE USING DEADLY FORCE AND CAN KEEP YOU OUT OF BUBBAS LOVING ARMS ON A COLD WINTERS NIGHT) on him. I'm not certain about shooting the guy unless he attempts to engage me. This seems like a lot, but it can all be done in a matter of seconds. We are talking about a guy with a knife (knife lovers I am not belittling the knife...in my training I have seen how fast a guy that's good with a knife can close on you and do lots of damage). It is unknown if he has a firearm. Like others have said if you aren't defending self or loved ones there is a lot of liability that comes with that $1 bullet.

As someone who has carried for my occupation and in combat I am always amazed at the amount of people that claim that they would squeeze the trigger to take a life and they have only put 20 rounds on bad guy #1 in hcp class. You don't have to go from 0 to 100 in every situation even in the situation that the op has given.

Seems as though you are going through a lot of steps for someone that lives in the combat zone of Memphis...

[daddyo]

I went to history class in school from time to time. I seem to recall many Germans taking that exact stance when their Jewish neighbors were mistreated. Then again, I think the same position has been popular in many places where genocide happens. It all starts with "well it's not my family they are after". Then, later, it is.

Help me understand how we went from a woman being attacked (for whatever reason) to the extermination of the Jews?

Edited July 19, 2012 by DaddyO