Moral dilema

[Guest Lstevison]

Hello all,

I have not posted here in a while, just been lurking and educating myself from others life stories.

I have moral question just like the title states. I am from Cleveland TN and last night we had a shooting by cop on a suspect.

In a nut shell, a male was stabbing a women in a vehicle at a gas station. Officer gave several commands to stop and the male did not. Cop shot said male.

Now here comes the big question............

If you and your wife, friend etc. were getting gas at this store or whatever, and you witnessed this act, woman is screaming fighting for her life. What would you do?

1. Call 911 and wait for the Police to arrive.

2. Physically interviene some how, ie Judo chop to the head?

3. Being a licensed hand gun owner and armed, after requesting the male to stop, do you go all "Dirty Harry" on his ass and shoot to save the womans life?

4. Stand there and do nothing and watch in horror?

Lets take em one at a time.

1. The most logical thing to do, and then refer to #4

2. Iffy, risk your own life to save a strangers.

3. Probably the right thing to do? but what about the legal hell storm you just brought down on your life? (Zimmerman) What makes her life more important than his, maybe she should be shot instead of him?

Could you live with yourself after taking someone else's life when it not yours or another family members life in immediate danger? (we all know what we would do if a family member was in danger)

4. Can you live with yourself watching someone possibly die by being stabbed to death, screaming and watching her fight for her life?

I am interested in hearing anyones take on this. Below is the story and link to the article.

Man is shot by county deputy

by DELANEY WALKER, Banner Staff Writer Cleveland Daily Banner

9 hrs ago | 1602 views | 0 | 7 | |

Tennessee Bureau of Investigation is looking into a police shooting by a Bradley County Sheriff’s Office deputy the Monday night.

According to BCSO public information officer Bob Gault, an unnamed deputy shot a man who was reportedly resisting police orders to submit to their commands. The suspect is alleged to have been stabbing a female passenger in his vehicle at the time of the shooting. The woman reportedly suffered from multiple stab wounds and was airlifted to Erlanger Medical Center in Chattanooga.

The suspect was taken to SkyRidge Medical Center. Their conditions have not been released.

The suspect who was shot was identified late this morning as Bobby Forgey. The female victim was identified as Heather Killen. She reportedly said she contacted 911 several times throughout the assault in the car. She also reportedly said she was being held against her will.

The Cleveland Police Department issued a BOLO [be on the look out] for a red SUV Monday night. According to Gault, the SUV eluded the police twice. A deputy from BCSO spotted the automobile at the intersection of Spring Place Road and Dalton Pike and gave chase, attempting a traffic stop. The vehicle turned into the parking lot of a gas station and struck a BMW, reports said. The man then drove the red SUV into a gas station cement barrier.

Deputies reportedly gave verbal commands for the man to submit. According to Gault, the man is alleged to have continued to inflict injury to the female in the passenger seat. A deputy on the scene reportedly then shot the man. The shooting reportedly occurred around 10 p.m.

“Procedure calls for an outside agency to conduct the investigation,†Gault said. “Tennessee Bureau of Investigation will be taking over the matter.â€

The BCSO is not releasing any further information about the incident nor the identity of the deputy pending the completion of the TBI investigation

Read more: Cleveland Daily Banner - Man is shot by county deputy

Edit: sorry about the spelling errors, as another poster pointed out, I do apologize for posting this from my cell phone.

Changed Zimmerman to Dirty Harry to please the masses. sorry.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Lstevison

[CM1021]

That's a tough situation...I like to think I would do number 3 and hope that he stops when I pull my firearm on him but in this situation he didn't...So I will just stick with 1, then 4, then if he stops and leaves before P.O.'s arrive on scene since I am an EMT I will do my best to do whatever I can for her til further assistance arrives.

[Oh Shoot]

The odds of that happening in your presence are so astronomical it's not worth even considering. Work on your spelling instead.

Seriously, 911 is almost always the best answer if it's not involving you or yours.

- OS

[Guest Lstevison]

The odds of that happening in your presence are so astronomical it's not worth even considering. Work on your spelling instead.

Seriously, 911 is almost always the best answer if it's not involving you or yours.

- OS

Thanks for not marking it all up in red ink.

[Glock30]

This is why I carry. Stop the threat and a possible murder in progress. Speaking for me only, I couldn't live with myself knowing I could have made a difference. Hopefully someone is with me and can dial 911 or another bystander can dial.

[Jonnin]

To borrow from clint eastwood.... when I see a guy chasing a woman with a butcher knife and a hard-on, I shoot the bastard.

So I guess my vote is to shoot the guy. That is the assumption that he has already stabbed her once, mind you, as the text you gave indicates. Also, in the case of already stabbed, he gets no warnings, no commands to stop. Back of the head, I don't really care.

If the woman is unharmed, 911 is your friend.

[Glock30]

Also, it's not "going Zimmerman" on someone. For goodness sake, we have enough struggles getting reasonable media treatment. The last thing we need to do is call something what it is not. It is up to us as a community to not create controversy with the way we talk and converse among ourselves. It is defense of a third party, not "going Zimmerman".

[TMF]

I think the moral dilemma boils down to what you can live with. The majority of the population would be fine just dialing 911 and watching a helpless person die. They would justify it in their minds as either "there was nothing I could do" or "it's the job of law enforcement to handle that." I'm not standing in judgement of that rationale... I don't expect that every old lady or fearful person should intervene in wrongdoings such as a superhero, but for folks like myself it is different. If I see something like that and I know in my heart that I am capable of stopping the death of an innocent I'm going to do something, whether I have a weapon or not. If I choose not to intervene then I know I will live the rest of my life with the guilt of an innocent death.

It's one thing if it's just a confrontation between two people, especially if it's a domestic type situation. I remember being in Walmart once and seeing an altercation between a couple with the man calling her all sorts of awful names and her giving it back to him. Perhaps in chivilrous days one would step in and explain that one should not talk to a lady that way, but I wasn't convinced that she was a lady. What's more, getting involved in someone else's problems/disputes is a sure way to have all that anger directed at you. That is a 911 scenario and one you shouldn't get involved in.

If the scenario is that a helpless person will likely die unless you immediately intervene it is really up to what your conscious can handle that decides what you do.

I intentionally misspelled some words there and used improper contractions... play along and see if you can find them!

Edited July 18, 2012 by TMF 18B

[MattCary]

Also, it's not "going Zimmerman" on someone. For goodness sake, we have enough struggles getting reasonable media treatment. The last thing we need to do is call something what it is not. It is up to us as a community to not create controversy with the way we talk and converse among ourselves. It is defense of a third party, not "going Zimmerman".

+1 This was the first thing I thought while reading the OPs post. Insert "Go Dirty Harry" here instead, GZ has enough trouble without your help.

Any of our legal counsel willing to offer up their thoughts on intervening in a third party attempted murder? Assuming she has been stabbed, and an HCP intervenes with commands to stop then firing?

It'd be difficult for me to stand by and do nothing in this situation.

Also, I believe I've read elsewhere that there is no duty to act or such, correct? In other words, an HCP holder couldn't be sued civilly for not intervening? i.e. "You had a gun and you didn't do anything?"

Edited July 18, 2012 by MattCary

[TMF]

Also, I believe I've read elsewhere that there is no duty to act or such, correct? In other words, an HCP holder couldn't be sued civilly for not intervening? i.e. "You had a gun and you didn't do anything?"

No, you can't be held liable for not intervening, but you can be held liable for intervening. Once again, let your conscience be your guide.

[Guest bkelm18]

If I don't know the totality of the circumstances, I am calling the police and not intervening. I'm not about to get charged with murder for intervening in a situation I know nothing about. If I'm 100% positive I'm witnessing a murder in progress, I might do something if I thought it were possible and safe for me to do so. Other than that, I'm calling 911. I carry for myself and my family. No one else. The woman in the car made her choices in life just like I've made mine.

[DaveTN]

I don’t have the protections I had as a cop, so I’m not getting involved in any situation that doesn’t involve an individual needing my immediate help. But when someone is being killed; I’m steeping in. I would very quickly let the guy know if he didn’t stop I was going to kill him. If he makes a move towards her or me with the knife again; I shoot him.

Bother me? Absolutely not, I could shoot him and go eat lunch. There is no “moral dilemma†for me. I would think the moral dilemma would be if you stood by and watched someone stabbed to death and did nothing.

[peejman]

I don’t have the protections I had as a cop, so I’m not getting involved in any situation that doesn’t involve an individual needing my immediate help. But when someone is being killed; I’m steeping in. I would very quickly let the guy know if he didn’t stop I was going to kill him. If he makes a move towards her or me with the knife again; I shoot him.

Bother me? Absolutely not, I could shoot him and go eat lunch. There is no “moral dilemma†for me. I would think the moral dilemma would be if you stood by and watched someone stabbed to death and did nothing.

Basically this.

I'd call 911 and put the phone on speaker so everything gets recorded. I've got a wife and kids, but I couldn't just stand by and watch someone be murdered. If something baseball bat-ish was handy, I might just whack the guy. If not, and I was armed...

[DaveS]

I would only say, is before I shot in a "third party" situation, I would make damn sure who was the actual victim was. She may have started stabbing him first, he took the knife and started stabbing back. Did we just shoot the "victim"?

Dave

[nightrunner]

No moral dilemma for me either. If he is about to kill her and has the means to do so, ill drop him, no question. And not feel bad about it. It might be the wrong thing to do depending on circumstances and their history with each other but I wouldnt be able to live with myself watching someone kill someone else and having the ability to prevent it. That WOULD be rough on a mans mind.

[TMF]

I would only say, is before I shot in a "third party" situation, I would make damn sure who was the actual victim was. She may have started stabbing him first, he took the knife and started stabbing back. Did we just shoot the "victim"?

Dave

Well, I think for the sake of the scenario it should be assumed that it is immediately obvious that an innocent is being assaulted.

[Guest Scramasax]

Couldn't stand by and watch a woman, child, or animal be attacked. Not wired that way. Two men fighting maybe. took a guy down manually once at a gas station, he was unarmed. Took another one down outside a bar. Both were attacking women. Wouldn't have had a problem shooting either one if they were armed. Even crippled as I am now I will still do what I can to protect the weak. Just raised that way. Not a hero, just couldn't live with myself otherwise, morally as a Christian.

Cheers,

ts

[daddyo]

It goes back to why you carry, and that needs to be decided before you ever strap on a firearm. My choice is for self-protection and protection of my loved ones. However, IF I found myself in this situation where I was the first responder, and I was certain the woman was going to lose her life if I did not intervene, then I would do so ONLY if I had a clear shot.

[BryanP]

Depending on details at the time, I'd yell at the guy that the police have been called and they're on their way. Hopefully that would make him take off - my immediate goal is to stop the threat after all, and him running away accomplishes that without me having to deal with the the legal and financial issues that attend shooting someone.

If he ignores me and continues the attack? Well then, I've got plenty of time to take a nice aimed "just like at the range" shot.

[enfield]

#1

"But she was unarmed!!"

She should have armed herself.

[Guest Broomhead]

Couldn't stand by and watch a woman, child, or animal be attacked. Not wired that way. Two men fighting maybe. took a guy down manually once at a gas station, he was unarmed. Took another one down outside a bar. Both were attacking women. Wouldn't have had a problem shooting either one if they were armed. Even crippled as I am now I will still do what I can to protect the weak. Just raised that way. Not a hero, just couldn't live with myself otherwise, morally as a Christian.

Cheers,

ts

This sums up my feelings to a 'T'.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I would get involved but I am not sure I would shoot to kill immediately. I would try to intervene but exhaust EVERYTHING before resorting to deadly force. I would not shoot first even if seconds do count.

The reason is the second you kill someone, even if it is justified, you are going to be sued by the bad guy's family. And that is going to cost you $10K or more to prepare for your first court date. Even if it is thrown out at the first court date it would be stupid to go in without counsel and hope the legal system turned into a justice system, there is a difference. You know the bad guy's family will have a pro bono attorney on their side and if you don't have counsel you are taking an awful big risk.

Another reason is to observe for a few seconds to determine what exactly what is going on. Perhaps the women is the agressor and the man is defending himself the only way he can.

Dolomite

[Guest President Fernatt]

This sums up my feelings to a 'T'.

You guys wouldn't shoot someone for attacking an animal would you?

[Guest drv2fst]

Make sure the situation is what you think it is. In THIS case it seems pretty obvious, but I have seen some news reports where couples were doing some role playing and third parties intervened to help the "victim" of an apparent rape or kidnapping only to find out that it was all a game. Again, THIS situation seems obvious. If there is someone stabbing another then act to stop the stabbing.

I would not hesitate to get involved. I agree with the idea to call 911 on speakerphone for the recording. I would add that I would try to use some level of nonlethal force first. I am NOT a fighter or trained in hand-to-hand combat, but I would still attempt to physically remove the attacker before drawing my gun. I know that is very risky, but I feel that some risk is justified before taking a life, and if I draw my gun that is what I expect to happen.

I've never stopped an attack but have jumped in to rapids to save someone from drowning on two separate occasions. So I know what it's like to put yourself in harms way for another person. You don't even think about "should I" you just do it. If you think about it, you certainly will not do it.

[tnhawk]

The victim might be an anti-gun liberal.