Sad story!

[DaveS]

Another life has been needlessly taken!

http://news.yahoo.com/video/deputies-shoot-kill-man-knocking-163819466.html

[dats82]

At the end he says, if you point a gun at an officer, you're gonna get shot. That is pretty ####ty if the officers don't even identify themselves as such. There certainly needs to be some repercussions from this. How can you bang on someone's door, not identify yourself as an officer, and then shoot the guy who anwers the door with a gun.

[Dennis1209]

Under the exact same circumstances, I wonder how many of us would have responded in like manner?

As we all know, it's not uncommon for the police to serve a warrant at the wrong address. Who knows, it could be one of us next time?

For the safety of LE it's doubtful policy is going to change much serving search / arrest warrants, so... These types of mistakes seem to be becoming more and more frequent. Let's arm chair quarterback this scenario?

Evidently LE failed to announce, "Police, search warrant". From what I'm reading lately, home invaders are picking up this tactic and imitating LE also, can't be sure of who's who without a score card.

It's too late for this resident but... You can't influence or control the actions of an aggressive home invasion legal or not. So, short of not being armed (as I would have been), on the residents part, what could have been done to prevent this?

Thoughts?

[wcsc12]

At the end he says, if you point a gun at an officer, you're gonna get shot. That is pretty ####ty if the officers don't even identify themselves as such. There certainly needs to be some repercussions from this. How can you bang on someone's door, not identify yourself as an officer, and then shoot the guy who anwers the door with a gun.

Just a terrible outcome.

Edited July 17, 2012 by wcsc12

[Dolomite_supafly]

Although it is rare stuff like this does happen and it is a sad situation.

Personally I believe the officer should be charged criminally with the shooting as well as pay damages out of HIS pocket. It was his actions that led to the death of another. Had the officer had the right address and announced himself the person killed would have likely not been shot. What is likely going to happen is it is going to be ruled a good shoot by the officer. The jurisdiction is going to pay damages, without admitting guilt, and the citizens are the ones that are going to pay for it with their taxes.

I would love to see the laws change where if an officer does wrong he is held responsible financially before any settlements made from public funds. If officers knew they could loose everything they worked so hard for they would probably use more caution and restraint. As it stands right now most officers are protected from loosing anything by their unions and the jurisdiction.

Also, if someone kicks my door in and doesn't announce themselves they will get shot. To me anyone who kicks my door in and doesn't announce themselves they are the bad guy. And if someone knocks at odd hours I have a gun in hand 99% of the time.

Dolomite

[peejman]

As usual, far too many unanswered questions to reach any conclusions.

[daddyo]

I started to post this story early this morning, but didn't want to give anyone the impression that I'm a cop basher.

I'm having a hard time understanding how a police officer can knock on or break down your door - unannounced and unidentified - in the wee hours of the morning when you are probably not completely awake enough to know what's going on, and in defense of your home and family, you arm yourself to answer the door, and you pay with your life.

Something is seriously wrong here.

Edited July 17, 2012 by DaddyO

[Guest rebeldrummer]

Wow.....the title of this post is very correct

SAD story..

I can't say I would have done anything different? I guess I would be dead too since, as the guy said, " if you point a gun at an officer your gonna get shot"

It sucks...too many unanswered questions. Seems to be "par for the course" lately with these stories!

[1gewehr]

Wrong door? Didn't announce themselves as 'Police'? Survivors should sue the county for everything including the pants of the officers. Sadly, the actual person responsible for this is probably the dispatcher, informant or some other flunky who gave the wrong address.

The thing that really bothers me is that as a non-criminal, you are pretty much liable to be screwed if someone knocks on the door at night, or if it is knocked in. If you don't have a gun, and it's criminals, you stand a good chance of dying. If it's cops and you have a gun, you will probably die. Even if they say they are cops, it could still be criminals. There is no good answer here.

[BryanP]

Lots of poor choices made here. We already know what the police did, so let's look at the other side of the equation, the one we actually control.

If the report is accurate, he opened the door, gun in hand. If he had looked through the peephole first he would have seen uniformed cops outside and probably would have thought better of that. If he had yelled "who is it" first they may have identified themselves and he would have at least hesitated.

Yes, I know, he was under no obligation to do that. His home, no reason he can't answer the door in his boxers toting a flamethrower if that's his preference. But there's lots of things that are perfectly legal choices that are poor choices nonetheless. It's legal for me to walk out into the crosswalk the instant the light changes and the "walk" sign lights up. I am under no obligation to look and make sure traffic has halted, I have the right of way. If I were to start doing that (especially near where I work) I'd be a dead man in pretty short order. Would I be in the right? Sure. Would I still be dead? Yep.

If someone comes pounding on my door in the middle of the night, I'm going to be carrying when I go down there. I'm also going to check the peephole first and yell through the door to find out who it is. If they claim they're the police I have no problem telling them I'm calling in to double check they're legitimate.

[BryanP]

Sadly, the actual person responsible for this is probably the dispatcher, informant or some other flunky who gave the wrong address.

According to other reports I've seen, they weren't at "the wrong address." They saw the motorcycle of the guy they were looking for parked out front so they knocked on the door. Guy opens the door pointing a gun. You know the rest.

http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florida/Deputies-shoot-kill-man-after-knocking-on-wrong-door/-/11788162/15527202/-/euk6tg/-/index.html

Deputies thought they were confronting Jonathan Brown, a man accused of attempted murder. Brown was spotted at the Blueberry Hills Apartment complex and his motorcycle was parked across from Andrew Scott's front door.

[dats82]

My door doesn't have a peep hole, and do you really think the cops are going to have a conversation with you through your door when they think you are an attempted murder? That could be a scene in a comical cop movie. I could just see these guys itching to bust down a door say, "Hang on, Spanky. He's going to "call it in" real quick to make sure we are the people we never said we were." Not going to happen.

[Defender]

Guess if I'm wanted, I'll be parking in front of someone else's door.

[Links2k]

At my house we don't even go to the door unless we are expecting company. Since we dont receive company at 1am any door that unexpectantly opens gets closed by .45 acp. Bedroom and kids doors will be closed by 00 buck.

[monkeylizard]

Guess if I'm wanted, I'll be parking in front of someone else's door.

I was thinking the same thing. And changing my vehicle regularly.

[Guest TankerHC]

It will be called a justified shooting and nothing will be done, the LEO's will go on about their business.

[Guest bkelm18]

So the police are looking for a guy wanted for attempted murder and they see his motorcycle parked in front of the house in an area they believe him to be. They knock on the door and the homeowner answers it with the gun in hand. I'm not defending the police but let's consider what exactly are they thinking at that moment? They're looking for a person who just tried to murder someone and a person opens the door with a gun. ####ty situation all around but can any of us honestly say what we would've done in the cops position? I sure can't. At least not with the facts presented in the news story.

Edited July 17, 2012 by bkelm18

[BrasilNuts]

SNAFU

[TMF]

Looks like there is blame (based on the officer's story) going in both directions. The K9 officer said that the door opened and all he saw was the muzzle of the weapon. I take that to mean that the weapon was being pointed at them when they shot him. I don't know if it went down like that, but if it did the deceased certainly plays a part in his demise.

Unannounced at 2 am though? I don't know if opening the door at all would be my first reaction. If I did I would be armed, but not pointing a weapon. As abnormal as it is to have your door pounded on at 2 am, it doesn't automatically justify pointing a firearm at the knocker.

If the Deputy didn't announce himself as law enforcement then that should be a procedural issue that needs to be addressed. I read in one of the articles the suggestion that the officers may have not announced themselves as to have the element of surprise on the suspect. Well, I don't think that is a good procedure if you don't know if the door you're knocking on is the correct door. In addition to that, they had just been in a high speed chase with the suspect, so it's safe to assume he would have been expecting law enforcement.

I dunno, seems like there is a lot going on here that could suggest either side to varying degrees of responsibility. The "x" factor here is that the deceased is an alleged drug dealer. This assumption was made based on the scales in the apartment in addition to drugs found. While that doesn't mean the officers have the right to shoot him or enter his apartment without a warrant, it opens up the possibility that the deceased may have been the aggressor since he only had one way out of that room (the front door).

If anything this should serve as a reason for LEAs to revisit policies on announcing themselves to avoid such things. We've seen the stories of no-knock warrants on wrong houses, and most of us would respond to that as a home invasion, not knowing that it's LEOs. The onus is on LEAs to be responsible for the outcomes of mistakes made on those operations, not the citizen. I should have no reason to assume an intruder is anything less than a threat to the lives of me and my family and I should have the right to defend them using deadly force.

Edited July 17, 2012 by TMF 18B

[Guest adamoxtwo]

My Opinion is that it should be the Sheriff that is held to the fire on this one. His protocol that his deputies are not tactically sound and are dangerous. If you are not going to announce yourself then don't knock on the door. If you do knock on the door you should announce yourself so that you don't grab for your gun and get shot. I would like to know if he pointed the weapon at the officer or just had one in his hand. That is something that we may never know, and only the shooting officer and verify. Wonder what his story will sound like.

[Links2k]

So the police are looking for a guy wanted for attempted murder and they see his motorcycle parked in front of the house in an area they believe him to be. They knock on the door and the homeowner answers it with the gun in hand. I'm not defending the police but let's consider what exactly are they thinking at that moment? They're looking for a person who just tried to murder someone and a person opens the door with a gun. ####ty situation all around but can any of us honestly say what we would've done in the cops position? I sure can't. At least not with the facts presented in the news story.

I understand the cops actions. I can't understand why the guy opened the door.

[gjohnsoniv]

Maybe the "drug dealer" wasn't current on his payments. Had to throw in the conspiracy theory. Sad that it happened the way it did though.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

I dunno, seems like there is a lot going on here that could suggest either side to varying degrees of responsibility. The "x" factor here is that the deceased is an alleged drug dealer. This assumption was made based on the scales in the apartment in addition to drugs found. While that doesn't mean the officers have the right to shoot him or enter his apartment without a warrant, it opens up the possibility that the deceased may have been the aggressor since he only had one way out of that room (the front door).

In this case, police were doing a very "traditional" duty as they have done for millenia-- Persuing a murder suspect. Its a shame things went wrong and maybe policy/training can be improved or maybe its as good as its gonna get. As you say we don't know exactly how "rational" the resident acted.

I agree if the resident was a drug dealer then people won't make as big a stink about mistakes police may or may not have made. Folks would assume the resident probably acted improperly, and such assumption would not be entirely unwarranted. Dealers are not known to be the most rational humans you would encounter. On the other hand we usually don't summarily execute dealers or druggies. If the guy was a dealer it increases the likelihood in my mind that the resident may have "done something wrong" in the encounter.

If there were "dealer quantities" of drugs in the residence then that is a dang good hint that he was a dealer. But the scales thing. That bothers me. Scales should not be automatic cause of suspicion. I'm a nerd and have several nice scales. And lots of other toys. I don't have every chemical necessary to make meth in the shop or the survival stores but ain't lacking much. Especially since apparently people can make meth out of just about any chemical you can buy at the hardware store. If somebody kicks down my door and I was accidentally shot then there is enough entirely innocent stuff in the house to be a police get out of jail card. "We didn't find any drugs but he was obviously up to no good because he had just about everything in stock."

Have been entering my second childhood. The first time around really enjoyed the chemistry set and had a pretty good lab for a few years. In college it became plainly obvious I wasn't cut out to be a chemist and gave it up. A few months ago got the hankering to get some chem equipment just in case I'd want to fiddle around sometime. Maybe this sounds paranoid, but so far I've not bought any chem equipment because-- How criminal do I want to appear if somebody kicks down the door? A simple glass condenser, a few flasks and beakers, some measuring devices for volume, ph, temp-- Perfect for innocent experimentation. Or distilling water in an emergency. Or making moonshine. Or making drugs. Or making explosives. He was obviously up to no good somehow. So maybe he was shot by mistake but he probably deserved it anyway.

When they take down alleged criminals they like to pile up all the guns and ammo in a heap in the living room floor, then empty out the medicine cabinet of drugs and vitamins and pile them on top, then take a newspaper picture of how dangerous the fella was. The suspect had thousands of rounds of ammunition and multiple guns. IOW supplies for a half year of range trips.

I'm not a rabid prepper, but if they ever take a scary picture of my stuff piled up in the living room floor, then that pile is gonna be big enough to make it plain to the citizenry that I was obviously a dangerous nutcase who deserved to be accidentally shot.

Now so far you can be an electronics or computer nerd without appearing prima facie guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors. Maybe if hacking or RF terrorism becomes a bigger deal then you will be a suspect for having multiple computers, or god forbid if you have an oscilloscope, multimeter, soldering iron and enough parts to stock a radio shack..

Up til now folks with amateur machine shops are not automatic criminal suspects but I expect amateur machinists are next in line automatic suspects. Pass a few more laws then if you have a mill and lathe in the basement then you will deserve to have been accidentally shot because you were most likely making guns. Especially if you can afford nice CNC toys in the basement. The deceased suspected gun runner told neighbors he made hobby engines and telescope parts but he had all tooling necessary to make automatic weapons.

Dang, did it again. Another silly rant.

[TMF]

Dang, did it again. Another silly rant.

Hahahaha!

[strickj]

I've answered my door with gun in hand before.

But I would never point my gun at someone while answering the door. If it's a cop, you're gonna get shot or end up in jail. If you accidentally pull the trigger, you're gonna end up in jail.

Edited July 20, 2012 by strickj