Posting Small Signs

[z90HD]

Well, it's certainly not statutorily compliant, but not "illegal" to put it up. That doesn't mean it absolutely couldn't cost you some significant bucks to prove you weren't guilty of violating the statute itself, though.

- OS

Point well taken

[DaveS]

I believe if that were really the case that they would post something like a sign that simply said "No Guns" which is not a legal sign rather than the gunbusters sign.

Not legal? How so...please don't quote the law, as I know what it says!

Dave

[Makiaveli]

Not legal? How so...please don't quote the law, as I know what it says!

Dave

Doesn't the posting have to include either the actual law or a "gun buster"? If so, then given that a flying fork is neither, what's your question?

[DaveS]

Doesn't the posting have to include either the actual law or a "gun buster"? If so, then given that a flying fork is neither, what's your question?

The Law doesn't give the actual "Verbage" of the sign. I've read it a thousand times, and unfortunetly...just about anything you put on the sign is legal in my opinion. My sign says..."No Weapons Allowed." Violators will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. And contains a gunbuster sign. What else would you like to see on it? What does the law say you "should see" on it....come on....talk to me. Don't be shy. Tell me how to improve my sign!

Dave

[TMF]

The Law doesn't give the actual "Verbage" of the sign. I've read it a thousand times, and unfortunetly...just about anything you put on the sign is legal in my opinion. My sign says..."No Weapons Allowed." Violators will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. And contains a gunbuster sign. What else would you like to see on it? What does the law say you "should see" on it....come on....talk to me. Don't be shy. Tell me how to improve my sign!

Dave

Since it's been posted on TGO a few hundred times we can post it again.

(3) (A) If a sign is used as the method of posting, it shall contain language substantially similar to the following:

AS AUTHORIZED BY T.C.A. § 39-17-1359, POSSESSION OF A WEAPON ON POSTED PROPERTY OR IN A POSTED BUILDING IS PROHIBITED AND IS A CRIMINAL OFFENSE.

( As used in this section, "language substantially similar to" means the sign contains language plainly stating that:

(i) The property is posted under authority of Tennessee law;

(ii) Weapons or firearms are prohibited on the property, in the building, or on the portion of the property or building that is posted; and

(iii) Possessing a weapon in an area that has been posted is a criminal offense.

c. A building, property or a portion of a building or property, shall be considered properly posted in accordance with this section if one (1) or both of the following is displayed in prominent locations, including all entrances primarily used by persons entering the property, building, or portion of the property or building where weapon possession is prohibited:

(i) The international circle and slash symbolizing the prohibition of the item within the circle; or

(ii) The posting sign described in this subdivision ( (3).

Dave, here is the AG opinion on it:

1. In order to prohibit handgun permit holders from carrying their handguns in a nongovernmental

building, must the sign contain the exact language set forth in Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-

17-1359(a)?

No. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1359(a) requires the posting of a notice which uses

language that is “substantially similar†to the language provided in the statute.

2. May a property owner use the international circle and slash symbol in lieu of a sign

that uses the language prescribed by Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1359(a)?

No. The international circle and slash symbol may not be used in lieu of a sign that

uses the language prescribed by Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1359(a).

So according to the law and the AG this wouldn't be considered a posting that carried the weight of the law. Unbeknownst to me, the AG's opinion on the matter is that an international circle slash can't be used in lieu of TCA language or similar. It doesn't mean that a person couldn't be charged if an officer happened to be there and was ignorant of the law, but the law is very clear and no one is going to be convicted under this law unless they are purposefully breaking it or trespassing. Since it hasn't happened in the entire State of Tennessee yet with it's 300,000 HCP holders I don't think it is going to happen. People carry past signs everyday.

Based on the words of the law and the AG opinion I would say that unless the sign says that it is a crime to carry past it there would be no hope of charges sticking to any HCP holder. That is the reality of it.

References:

http://www.tn.gov/at...007/op/op43.pdf

http://www.lexisnexi...ttopics/tncode/

Edited July 27, 2012 by TMF 18B

[DaveS]

In referance to the above...

B and B (ii) ?

C and C (i) ?

Who wants to test it? I surely don't. Simply put, If I see the words "NO" Weapons Allowed, a "Gunbuster" Sign, or any combination there of...I'm smart enough to know what the business owners wishes are, and abide by it. It could be a 2 inch square stuck on the door at eye level or a 4x8 sheet of plywood painted up. It's all the same. NO means NO means NO......period.

I'm not anti -gun by no means. I hear all this squabble about improper postings, and there is little info on here (and the folks squabbling can't even produce what their idea of a proper sign is) to give us all an idea of a "proper posting".

So if we're gonna complain about a business being improperly posted...design you a sign, post on here...better yet, take it to the posted business, tell them that their signage doesn't suit you under the law, give them the sign you made,and tell them it's a proper sign and please post it right here (while pointing to a spot on the door), and then politely tell them that you will never come back as long as their property is "Properly Posted!"

That's my editorial for the day...

Good day all!

Dave

Edited July 27, 2012 by wd-40

[DMark]

.... if we're gonna complain about a business being improperly posted...design you a sign, post on here....

OK, how about this one!

I think this sign would clearly express the wish of the business owner - - - AND the possible results.

[TMF]

In referance to the above...

B and B (ii) ?

C and C (i) ?

Who wants to test it? I surely don't. Simply put, If I see the words "NO" Weapons Allowed, a "Gunbuster" Sign, or any combination there of...I'm smart enough to know what the business owners wishes are, and abide by it. It could be a 2 inch square stuck on the door at eye level or a 4x8 sheet of plywood painted up. It's all the same. NO means NO means NO......period.

I'm not anti -gun by no means. I hear all this squabble about improper postings, and there is little info on here (and the folks squabbling can't even produce what their idea of a proper sign is) to give us all an idea of a "proper posting".

So if we're gonna complain about a business being improperly posted...design you a sign, post on here...better yet, take it to the posted business, tell them that their signage doesn't suit you under the law, give them the sign you made,and tell them it's a proper sign and please post it right here (while pointing to a spot on the door), and then politely tell them that you will never come back as long as their property is "Properly Posted!"

That's my editorial for the day...

Good day all!

Dave

Well, you requested the verbage indicated in the law. I went one further and even offered the AG opinion which appears to be contrary to yours. Not that I don't support your right to decide what goes on in your business, but for the point of clarification that you asked for I figured I'd deliver. Since you post similar verbage to include it being a crime to carry past your sign it meets the criteria set forth in the law and is in line with the AG's opinion, but your assessment a few posts up where you state that "just about anything you put on the sign is legal in my opinion" would be incorrect according to the law and the opinion of the AG.

To answer the question that was posed before, no. A flying fork is not a "legal" posting. Apparently the manager didn't care so long as he had a HCP. Sounds like a good interaction IMO.

I'm not condoning everyone to just blow off the wishes of a property owner, I'm just making the facts clear. The fact is that nothing legally is gonna happen to you if you don't see a sign. The only way someone is going to get charged under this law is if they're breaking another law, such as trespassing, at the time they are breaking this one.

[Oh Shoot]

....

Dave, here is the AG opinion on it:

2. May a property owner use the international circle and slash symbol in lieu of a sign

that uses the language prescribed by Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1359(a)?

No. The international circle and slash symbol may not be used in lieu of a sign that

uses the language prescribed by Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1359(a).

That opinion was issued in 2007, long before the law changed.

"International circle and slash" (gunbuster) is perfectly conforming currently, and can stand alone.

"Substantially similar" was not defined at that time either, but is now.

- OS

Edited July 27, 2012 by OhShoot

[Oh Shoot]

double tap, sorry.

Edited July 27, 2012 by OhShoot

[TMF]

That opinion was issued in 2007, long before the law changed.

"International circle and slash" (gunbuster) is perfectly conforming currently, and can stand alone.

- OS

Oops, and here I thought I learned something new.

[DaveS]

That opinion was issued in 2007, long before the law changed.

"International circle and slash" (gunbuster) is perfectly conforming currently, and can stand alone.

"Substantially similar" was not defined at that time either, but is now.

- OS

THANK YOU!

[Makiaveli]

The Law doesn't give the actual "Verbage" of the sign. I've read it a thousand times, and unfortunetly...just about anything you put on the sign is legal in my opinion. My sign says..."No Weapons Allowed." Violators will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. And contains a gunbuster sign. What else would you like to see on it? What does the law say you "should see" on it....come on....talk to me. Don't be shy. Tell me how to improve my sign!

Dave

First off I posted what I consider to be a simple and polite post. Please either post the same or just ignore me. If you took it as me being a smart-ass then just simply say so and I will clarify by either apologizing or explaining that you took it correctly. We straight now?

Secondly, if I don't quote the law then anything I say would just be my opinion and that's damn near worthless, right?

So I asked for clarification. OS and TMF cleared things up. Your sign is legal because it has a gunbuster. Now I just have one more question, what is the name of your business so I know the next time I am in C-ville?

[DaveS]

First off I posted what I consider to be a simple and polite post. Please either post the same or just ignore me. If you took it as me being a smart-ass then just simply say so and I will clarify by either apologizing or explaining that you took it correctly. We straight now?

Secondly, if I don't quote the law then anything I say would just be my opinion and that's damn near worthless, right?

So I asked for clarification. OS and TMF cleared things up. Your sign is legal because it has a gunbuster. Now I just have one more question, what is the name of your business so I know the next time I am in C-ville?

PM sent...

Post where and how you choose...

Dave Sayre

Edited July 28, 2012 by wd-40

[DaveS]

Due to the fact that everyone who complains about a business posting only sees the "front side of the door" and not what goes on behind it....

Dave

[Makiaveli]

Due to the fact that everyone who complains about a business posting only sees the "front side of the door" and not what goes on behind it....

Dave

Let's clear something up here. I fully support your right to post. I get that sometimes it's a decision motivated by finances, insurance rates say. However, we all here know that it won't stop a criminal. The people MOST likely to cause a situation by accident are generally the ones who will carry right past your sign anyway. I do grant that anyone can have an accident, and that if no legal guns walk in your door, you will not have an accidental shooting involving a legal gun.

The thing is you seem to be defensive about your decision. Some people here have been a bit overboard I think in jumping your case. But lets be honest here. You are asking your customers to give up the majority of their ability to defend themselves and trust you to cover that slack. Not likely to fly with this crowd.

[Rickey]

I do have a question about a place of business that post's a gun buster sign. If some nut come's in and shoots a customer what's the chances of them being held legally responsible. The store took away your rights to defend yourself so there responsible for your safety right?

[TMF]

I do have a question about a place of business that post's a gun buster sign. If some nut come's in and shoots a customer what's the chances of them being held legally responsible. The store took away your rights to defend yourself so there responsible for your safety right?

Not at all. It is your choice to enter an establishment that posts. If you are that concerned about your safety then you wouldn't go in there in the first place. If you decide that patronizing the business is more important than your personal safety then the onus is on you in regard to disarming.... no one is forcing you to go in there.

[DaveS]

Let's clear something up here. I fully support your right to post. I get that sometimes it's a decision motivated by finances, insurance rates say. However, we all here know that it won't stop a criminal. The people MOST likely to cause a situation by accident are generally the ones who will carry right past your sign anyway. I do grant that anyone can have an accident, and that if no legal guns walk in your door, you will not have an accidental shooting involving a legal gun.

The thing is you seem to be defensive about your decision. Some people here have been a bit overboard I think in jumping your case. But lets be honest here. You are asking your customers to give up the majority of their ability to defend themselves and trust you to cover that slack. Not likely to fly with this crowd.

The accident we had in the shop was from a person carrying LAGALLY! And not a single incident since!!

It may be true that we "can't fix stupid", but we can help remove that card from the deck right?

Well I can't change the world, not even one itty bitty part of it...just my little corner is all!

I have no problem with someone I know carrying in my little shop and house, non at all. It's the MORONS the sign is put up for. Like the idiot who came in O/C a double action revolver at what he called "Locked and Cocked". You can thank this...thing...for my current stand on "POSTINGS".

Tis why I said...you only see the sign on the outside of the door...not what goes on behind it. Maybe ya'll will see things a little differently.

It's already been said...a MENTAL EVALUATION needs to be a part of the HCP issuing process. After all, an 8 hour class and 48 rounds shot at targets all under 30 feet ? I've yet to ever hear anyone failing this.

Just understand for one moment where "we" come from. Most of ya'll demand to carry in a business to "protect" your self and your family. We post (as most businesses do) to "protect" ourselves and our families. What is so hard about everyone knowing the needs of others, and getting along right? YOU can CARRY in a business....WE CAN'T...scares the sheep away!

Good Day Sir!

Dave

Edited July 29, 2012 by wd-40

[DaveS]

I'll tell ya'll what...when I get in from the back 40 this evening, I'll post the incident that happened. I don't expect it to change your minds...but maybe it will help you see the other side of the "Gun Buster" sign.

Good Day All...

Dave

[DMark]

I think the OP's comment was about how a business "hid" their sign. There is a concern among many of us that a business will go out of its way to make the sign as hard to see as possible. The state congress needs to fix this by correcting the current law with a clear understanding of the type & location of the sign (as the old law did).

wd-40 - - - This was never about you.

So as an attempt to bring this discussion back on topic before it goes beyond outrageous..., I think its time to bring out the "Big Toe" himself...., SFC Hulka!

Dave, this is for you!

[DaveTN]

I do have a question about a place of business that post's a gun buster sign. If some nut come's in and shoots a customer what's the chances of them being held legally responsible. The store took away your rights to defend yourself so there responsible for your safety right?

No, as TMF pointed out; you can just say no.

For most business owners I would guess this isn’t about guns, shootings, AD/ND’s, or their feelings on gun control; it’s about money. If you get shot inside a business, you will go get a lawyer that will tell you that you deserve a payday. Just like the lawyer that took the cops case after his young son shot him because he didn’t secure his weapon. Problem is, you probably aren’t going to get anything from the shooter. You might be able to get a judgment but that doesn’t mean much if he doesn’t have the ability to pay or just refuse to. Your attorney needs someone with “Deep Pockets†so both he and you can get paid. That will be the business. The attorney doesn’t care if the business isn’t responsible or not; he just needs to get a payday. So you two get together and sue the business. The business owner can run the risk (and have the expense) of going to court or he can make a deal with you and your attorney for whatever his insurance company will pay. Should be decide to fight you, that sign on the door could dramatically impact the jury’s decision if they are deciding on punitive damages.

Suing someone when you know they are not a fault should be a crime. But it’s not because the attorneys make the laws; they aren’t going to do anything to stop them from strong arming a person with the ability to pay. Someday I believe that will change, but until it does the owner of a business has a responsibility to his family and his employees to do what’s right for the business. The state is who you need to be talking to about your safety. It is a crime for a citizen to carry a gun in this state. Only people in a very small special group have bought the privilege of carrying a loaded gun. IMHO this state can pass all the laws it wants about whether you can carry in a business or not, but until it is a right and not a privilege it will never hold up when tested in court…. Or at least it shouldn’t.

[DaveTN]

Like the idiot who came in O/C a double action revolver at what he called "Locked and Cocked".

So this guy had been walking around with a revolved cocked and no one told him what an idiot he was? What kind of explanation did he give you when you told him what he was doing was reckless?

So your reason for posting has nothing to do liability, but we can’t carry in your business because a guy was carrying a revolver cocked?

[Makiaveli]

The accident we had in the shop was from a person carrying LAGALLY! And not a single incident since!!

It may be true that we "can't fix stupid", but we can help remove that card from the deck right?

Look closer and you will see that I said that very thing.

Well I can't change the world, not even one itty bitty part of it...just my little corner is all!

I have no problem with someone I know carrying in my little shop and house, non at all. It's the MORONS the sign is put up for. Like the idiot who came in O/C a double action revolver at what he called "Locked and Cocked". You can thank this...thing...for my current stand on "POSTINGS".

Tis why I said...you only see the sign on the outside of the door...not what goes on behind it. Maybe ya'll will see things a little differently.

Then why not simply post that you reserve the right to refuse service to anyone? Then when some moron walks in, you tell them to either stop doing what you consider moronic or leave.

You have chosen to ban everyone for the actions of a few. Fine. Your shop, your rules.

But don't act all offended when someone comes along and says I won't shop there because you posted. You want people to accept your decision, then accept theirs.

It's already been said...a MENTAL EVALUATION needs to be a part of the HCP issuing process. After all, an 8 hour class and 48 rounds shot at targets all under 30 feet ? I've yet to ever hear anyone failing this.

That's whole different discussion. Also, last I checked the Constitution didn't say anything about it. Personally I think you just let your liberalism slip through.

Just understand for one moment where "we" come from. Most of ya'll demand to carry in a business to "protect" your self and your family. We post (as most businesses do) to "protect" ourselves and our families. What is so hard about everyone knowing the needs of others, and getting along right? YOU can CARRY in a business....WE CAN'T...scares the sheep away!

Good Day Sir!

Dave

So since you can't carry, we can't either? I thought it was because of the accidents? Also, it's your shop, your rules remember? You can choose to carry. The financial ramifications of that choice are on you and could potentially threaten your business's sustainability, but it's still a choice.

[DaveS]

In getting this post back on track. I cannot find a "size limit" on gunbuster signs. I very seriously doubt a business owner will trully go out of his way to "HIDE" a sign from anyone!

Sorry I got off track with trying to get ya'll to see "behind the sign". I at least thought the right to share my experiences and opinion came with my Benefactor Status. I'll not get "off subject" anymore, promise.

Am I the only business/hobby owner on here with engough "lead in the barrel" to express our opinions on posting?

Dave

Edited July 29, 2012 by wd-40